Religion- Read first post please

[Cassowary]

why do people choose not to believe in a God?

Late to the party, but the way this was phrased struck me as a little odd. We're not born religious.

I never chose to not believe in a god, it's how I always was. All concepts of higher entities as described by modern religions are taught to children; it's not innate.

[TxCat]

I can understand where macinot might be coming from, although I think it could have been phrased better in order to avoid confusion.

There's an old joke regarding people wanting their God to fix things:

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says, "Get in, get in!"

The religious man replies, " No, I have faith in God. He will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in God and God will give him a miracle.

With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him but he turns down the offer again because "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, Mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the offer of help for the faith of God.

He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, "I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down."

St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about! We sent you three boats and a helicopter."

If you wish to put it more simply still: God helps those who help themselves.

It's a belief shared by quite a few pagans as well. Our gods are different. Since we have been made in their images, they're certainly not perfect either. Quite a few have agendas of their own; some are benevolent, some mean well but always screw it up, and some just plain like messing with people. Where we differ --- or maybe we don't --- is in choice. Certainly, having been made in a god or goddess' image, we stand here as instruments of our own faith. However, we can choose not to take that path. We always have the option to make our own decisions. It may lead us off track --- or it might not --- but the choice was always ours and we alone take responsibility for the result of those choices.

I personally believe that a divine spark exists in everything from ideas to tools and that our choice about how we use them shapes whether or not good or ill comes of it. We make our own miracles because everything has been touched by that spark of divinity.

[crazyflight]

TxCat, I'm kind of confused about your last post, mostly about the story with the man who was hoping for a miracle and actually got it without realizing it. If God sent those boats and the helicopter, than weren't the people actually His tools? I mean, I hate that word choice too, like Brad, but it's unfortunately appropriate to me in the context. Is genuine niceness being "used" by God, or is it just part of the decisions of an individual? I mean, if that situation were real, the person in the boat would be performing an act of kindness. Is that actually God speaking to the man, is it the simply kind man speaking to the religious man, or is it something else?
That's my main question. Everything else is just babbling.

I think that my whole problem with the religion debate sprouts when people say that "God is real, that is a fact, and no arguments are legitimate except my own beliefs". Even this:

I prefer to use the title "co-creationists" because that is what we are. We are not a giant ant farm or something, we are literally His children.

Although it isn't like my example, they are semi-similar (to me, at least). I mean, I don't have a problem with you believing this, Brad. I think it's better - much better - than some of the things I've heard before. But is it a fact? If God were factual, then there wouldn't have to be faith. Or would there?

[BradTheMad]

But is it a fact? If God were factual, then there wouldn't have to be faith. Or would there?

Fact:
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.
2.a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
b. A real occurrence; an event.
c. Something believed to be true or real.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

Whoops

But all joking aside no I cannot prove there is a G-d but neither can we prove many scientific "facts" as most are theories that will change, be added to or completely "disproved" by a better theory later on.
To me faith sounds too much like "hope", for me it is more a feeling or inner knowing. Is this fact? Depends on whom you ask. I'm not arrogant enough to say this is the Absolute Truth TM and I know what it's all about. My faith does not make me turn away from complicated matters or debates about difficult theological matters.

As for G-d being nice, in my opinion it is ridiculous to apply human emotions to Something we could never hope to understand. We use these terms to describe the indescribable. That's why G-d is, in my denomination, seen as what we try to understand of the real Thing Eyn Sof(=without end). Eyn Sof is so whoopty-doo transcendental we cannot even begin to fathom. G-d has certain aspects that are just as hard to understand but at least it is within our physical universe.

So the question "does G-d really care about us?" is interesting but holds no value to me as caring is a human emotion/act. G-d only cares because It does something that seems to us like It cares.

[Dreamsong]

I'm not personally religious but I don't hate on others who are. Also personally, I don't agree with most religious views or religion in general. It seems to have started more fights than solved really anything. The only really positive spin I can see on religion is that it gives people who are potentially suicidal hope or something to cling on to. Otherwise, I don't really see anything good about it. Plus, the Bible the religion{s} I am most familiar with claim to follow say many of the exact opposite things as they claim it to be and practice as a religion. An example would be homosexuality. Many of {a} certain religion{s} believe it to be a sin because the Bible supposedly said so. But I've read the Bible, or at least the first 1/3 of it or so, and in it they have angels asking for men from a town "so that we may have sex with them". Male angels asking for males. . . Yeah. Another thing, speaking of angels -- Angels were originally the people who carried out all of God's 'dirty deeds', like killing others and such, yet today they have halos and wings and are a symbol of innocence, peace, etc. Also, Christmas. The celebration of Jesus's birth. No no no. He specifically asked for people to celebrate his death, not his birth. Also, he wasn't even born in December -- he was born at a time when the shepherds were out sleeping with their flocks at night {or the flocks were at least out, not sure if the shepherds were sleeping with them.... but yeah} which means it had to be mid November at the latest, lest it be too cold to sleep outside/have their flocks out.

Religion confuses me.

[Corvidae]

I'm not personally religious but I don't hate on others who are. Also personally, I don't agree with most religious views or religion in general. It seems to have started more fights than solved really anything. The only really positive spin I can see on religion is that it gives people who are potentially suicidal hope or something to cling on to. Otherwise, I don't really see anything good about it. Plus, the Bible the religion{s} I am most familiar with claim to follow say many of the exact opposite things as they claim it to be and practice as a religion. An example would be homosexuality. Many of {a} certain religion{s} believe it to be a sin because the Bible supposedly said so. But I've read the Bible, or at least the first 1/3 of it or so, and in it they have angels asking for men from a town "so that we may have sex with them". Male angels asking for males. . . Yeah. Another thing, speaking of angels -- Angels were originally the people who carried out all of God's 'dirty deeds', like killing others and such, yet today they have halos and wings and are a symbol of innocence, peace, etc. Also, Christmas. The celebration of Jesus's birth. No no no. He specifically asked for people to celebrate his death, not his birth. Also, he wasn't even born in December -- he was born at a time when the shepherds were out sleeping with their flocks at night {or the flocks were at least out, not sure if the shepherds were sleeping with them.... but yeah} which means it had to be mid November at the latest, lest it be too cold to sleep outside/have their flocks out.

Religion confuses me.

* Angels are typically considered to be sexless. They aren't male, but neither are they female, although they're classically represented and spoken of as beautiful, androgynous masculine types. Also, could you quote the verses in which this occurs? I consider myself fairly familiar with Scripture, and I think I'd remember that... You might be thinking of Sodom and Gomorrah, in which the humans demanded that Lot hand over the (masculine-formed, at the time) angels who had come to visit him. A bit backwards.

* As to the common depiction of angels -- "dirty work" is a bit of a misnomer. Angels were depicted as doing the work of the Lord, which, yes, in the Old Testament involved soldiering and assassination as well as healing and blessing. We think of that now as "dirty work", but at the time, it was considered to be the work of the Lord and therefore righteous and honorable. The view of warfare has changed dramatically in the past century or so, and the Old Testament never claimed to offer an unbiased view of events. Then the Romantic period happened, and it was more fashionable to depict angels as beautiful gentle messengers of love. They retained the nobility and honor, while losing most of the violence (though not all of it: Michael got to stay a warrior, but they became a symbol of God's protection of Their people, rather than a soldier executing God's wrath).

* Homosexuality is never spoken of clearly in the Bible -- the closest it gets is a word Paul mentions that is often translated as "homosexuality", though there's no real evidence that this is what it meant in the original Greek.

* I can't speak for other religions, but there are a wide range of translations of the Bible and an even wider range of interpretations. The Bible self-contradicts frequently; anyone professing to follow the Bible literally in all respects is wrong, because that is quite literally impossible.

* God undergoes character development. Old Testament God and New Testament God are very different. New Testament God and the teachings of Christ are what most moderate-to-liberal Christian groups follow. Old Testament God is what the more intolerant Christian groups tend to follow. Of course these are generalities, and there are plenty of both two whom this doesn't apply.

You have to keep in mind the historical context of Christianity. A lot can happen in two thousand years, both historically and culturally, and in that time Christianity has run the gamut from oppressed minority to dominant oppressors, from acceptance to intolerance to everything in between, from literalism to figuratism to corruption to sincerity to sincere perpetuation of traditions spawned by corruption, and let's not even get started on the linguistic complications... There's a lot there. Forget sects; no two congregations of Christianity hold exactly the same beliefs, although they'll all be referred to as and call themselves "Christian". Beliefs tend to be dictated less by the Bible as a whole (which, as I said, is impossible) than by which parts of the Bible and which Biblical values a congregation prefers to emphasize, which is more dependent on the local culture than any sort of overarching ideology. And that's just currently--it gets exponentially more complicated once you start looking at the past.

Of course you're confused, if you're trying to define Christianity as a monolith. It simply can't be done.

(Also, please don't judge all religions based solely on evidence from Christianity.)

[justdancer]

I'm a Baptist Christian, but I'm always interested in learning about other religions. I have friends who are Buddhists (did I spell that right?), Muslims, Athiests, Catholics, Jews, and so many others, and I want to learn more about them. Maybe because I don't want to make them feel left out.

So...I guess I just posted here for future reference. xD

[Interitum]

But all joking aside no I cannot prove there is a G-d but neither can we prove many scientific "facts" as most are theories that will change, be added to or completely "disproved" by a better theory later on.

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask this but why do many people compare religion and science as if one disproves the other? If God really did create the universe he could have created it using what we call science. After all if you were to take a cell phone to biblical times they would think it was magic. Magic is just science we have yet to understand. And for all we know Adam and Eve could have been our pre-evolution ape cousin things and when they ate the fruit of knowledge they underwent a sudden mutation and turned into what we are now.

[koda123lc]

My family has raised me to belief what I want in life, and I am currently undefined in religion. I do believe in a higher power, but I do not believe it is someone like God. I think that any higher power would be a woman. However, if I die someday and realize I am wrong, I will not care that much. I have no problem with changing my beliefs and I have no problem with other people's beliefs as long as their beliefs do not directly harm anyone. I think that learning about different religions is very fascinating.

[georgexu94]

Hi fellow magi friends!
So here I am in this serious discussion thread.
So I'll first say I'm completely confuse with my religion and/or beliefs. I'm a so-called Christian (by name; I don't deserve to be called as such actually)
Firstly, I'm currently having doubts with religion, that's why I'm here.
After reading texts from the Old Testament, I realised that God is portrayed as punishing and cruel. But after that, in the New Testament, during Jesus time and after, he is kind and loving. So I keep asking why the sudden change?
Secondly, my dad is non Christian but he's so kind, generous and just. But if the preaching of Christianity is right, then good works is useless. Only faith and grace will save us. This is unfair.
Thirdly, I read the profile of someone who I admire. Yes, it's Cassowary. I find her of great principle. She have some quotes from wise men to which I agree with. One thing is, two quotes I have which I equally agree but make me doubt life. Here are they:

"I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice."
~Charles Darwin

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
~Marcus Aurelius

I apologise for my current situation. I lack organisation. I just don't know how and what to say. I agree with Aurelius quote so much. That makes it hard to believe in a just god.
Thank you for any enlightenment

Love,
George Xu

Edit:

I'm a Baptist Christian, but I'm always interested in learning about other religions. I have friends who are Buddhists (did I spell that right?), Muslims, Athiests, Catholics, Jews, and so many others, and I want to learn more about them.

This describes me as well