Right to Death

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ToxicFlame
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Right to Death

Post by ToxicFlame »

So here's a (obviously) very touchy topic... but because of certain events going on in life, it has gotten me thinking about the idea of the "right to die" for those with painful, terminal illnesses or those close to death due to old age or other ailments (which often coincide, let's be real here).

My grandfather-in-law recently made the elective decision to go off of his oxygen. He was of sound mind and the doctors agreed that they could no longer regulate his breathing. He would just be sitting there and suffering. He had a DNR (do-not-necessitate) and he was out of pain through morphine. He was taken off of his oxygen support "to see if he could breathe on his own" and he quickly lost his breath. I was not there, but my husband was, and my husband watched his own father make the same decision (opposite sides of the family).

Some states in America, and some countries, have a "right to die" where a person in certain situations, if they are of sound mind, have the right to humane and comfortable euthanasia when the cons of their living outweigh the pros. Being that I had (and sometimes still have) severe depressive and anxiety disorders, my opinion on this subject isn't the fairest, but I have been thinking about it because of all this.

So I want to know...

What's your opinion on "the right to die?"
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Re: Right to Death

Post by BradTheMad »

First of all my sincerest condolences with your loss.

Second, I am absolutely for people deciding whether or not to either extend or end their lives.
Here in the Netherlands we do have laws about the right to die but when it comes to it it is actually extremely hard for people to get euthanized.
The other way around also applies. I now have an uncle who has stage four cancer and here the doctors will no longer treat him yet he wants to continue living as long as possible. He therefore goes to Belgium in order to get chemo-treatment.

Even if there are laws in place it isn't always so easy in practice.

I understand the sensitivity of such issues but I am firmly of the belief that people have a right to self-determination. No matter what I feel I should respect the choice of somebody whether to keep on going against all odds or choose to no longere live.

I have sadly seen one of my best friends take his life in a quite gruesome way because although he suffered terribly, the doctors found him to be "unsound". Which he wasn't; he was clear and did not have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts.
A 90-year old man recently made the news here; he had killed himself by crawling towards and going over his balcony because nobody listened to him about how much his ailments made him suffer terrible pains daily. It immediately reminded me of my friend.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by MistyoC »

I believe in a person's right to choose to die on their own terms if their prognosis is grim. My paternal grandmother and my father were each kept alive against their wishes, though my father's wife did then give in and let him go after it was obvious even to her that he would not regain consciousness. That said, my maternal grandmother was given "3-6 months to live" nearly 30 years before she passed at 99. To me, part of the difference is quality of life. I don't know many of the details of my paternal grandmother's final illness except that she was bedridden. My father was bedridden and on breathing support even before he slipped into a coma. My maternal grandmother was still active, though used a wheelchair for safety (she fell a lot) her last few years. I don't remember what the diagnosis was that gave her the supposedly shortened life expectancy, but it was definitely a miscall.
I currently have a friend who has said he's been told he could have a month or a year. He's still active, but last week he fell down his stairs getting mail and last night, he passed out and broke his nose. We're hoping he can hang in until after his daughter's wedding, but he sometimes has doubts. I'm not sure he'll continue treatment after she's married.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by Brynmala »

I also firmly believe that a person should have the right to choose, but in the UK we have laws against it, so anyone wanting to take this option has to go abroad.

I watched my dad suffer through a debilitating and degrading disease. Although his mind was fully active he lost virtually all ability to move or communicate. Whilst he was still able to speak he described the experience as 'a living hell'. Although he, because of his faith, would not have chosen self euthanasia If I had been in his place I would like to have that option. I can, and have, chosen euthanasia for my pets when it was necessary, it seems inhuman that we cannot allow the same for humans.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by WarriorsRock2010 »

I think we should have the right to die. All the points made before count towards why I think that should be an option, as it ends unnecessary suffering. Animals or people, if we're suffering and there's really no hope of recovery then the best outcome would be a swift end. I hope I die quickly when the time comes. I don't want to suffer, but I think it is illegal where I am right now.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by ToxicFlame »

This kind of goes hand-in-hand with this subject matter...so rather than just start a new thread, I thought I would add it here. What is your opinion on Hospice?

Hospice is an American government assistance organization that enables those with terminal illnesses or those that need "end of life care" to get COMFORTABLE assistance at home. It prioritizes comfort rather than treatment.

I bring this up because both of my paternal grandparents whom my husband and I live with are being referred to hospice by their primary doctor. Unfortunately, Medicare will not cover both a 'treatment' plan and an 'end of life' plan... Which means my grandmother cannot have both dialysis (since it is technically a "treatment" - although without it her prognosis is a GENEROUS 6 months) and hospice. We experienced hospice care with my husband's grandparents - and they definitely focus on comfort. Unlike the current at-home care my grandparents are receiving, they would not be pushed for physical or occupational therapy and they will be encouraged to take medications to make them comfortable rather than prolonging their life. Grandma is in late-stage renal & congestive heart failure and my grandfather has late-stage cirrhosis of the liver, with them both being overweight and diabetics. Technically, my father (their son) has Power of Attorney and gets to make the decisions, but I live with them so he heavily relies on my opinion.

Any advice, thoughts, or opinions?
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Re: Right to Death

Post by BradTheMad »

ToxicFlame wrote: Any advice, thoughts, or opinions?
One thing I definitely do not miss from the US; the healthcare system.

The only thing I can advice is talk long and hard with everyone involved. Obviously you'd want your loved ones to be with you as long as is possible but there's also something to be said for knowing when you are only prolonging the inevitable and trying to make that time left to you as comfortable as possible. Sometimes, treatment can be so stressful you'd have to consider if it is worth the extra time given (if at all because nothing is certain).

I am myself not the healthiest person so I frequently wonder what I will do if I find myself in the same position. Healthcare is better over here but in the end there will always remain the choice between prolonging your life or accepting the fact that you're better off making your last days as comfortable as possible.

It's really about what the people themselves want, what care their caregivers are able (and willing) to give and the diagnosis in particular.

Wishing you all the best. Tough situation.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by ToxicFlame »

I appreciate the thoughts! I ended up accidentally venting here a little bit, I suppose. Woops. lol

Yeah, me and my father have talked at length about it. Unfortunately my grandparents aren't in a sound place of mind wherein they can give their opinions or desires on the matter... That makes it extra tough. But we think we know the course of action we will be taking.

I know if it were me, I'd want to have all this clearly written down in stone and signed by me so my family members wouldn't have to stress through all these decisions for me. And I think it should be fair for those sort of arrangements to be made.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by Mockingbird13 »

I think it's important for people to have the ability to measure their own chronic or unchangeable level of suffering against the weight of continuing to live and to be taken seriously if they decide that their own quality of life is too low to keep going. This post reminds me of my own grandfather who suffered heavily in his later years, especially with his lungs (he was a heavy smoker his whole life). He also had shingles causing him some pretty serious chronic pain, along with bad joints and some other health problems that caused him pain. Sometimes he would say things like "Hopefully this will be my last winter" and a lot of us were really with him on that because you could tell that even just breathing was painful for him. He did get a boost when my sisters both had kids, and he got a wild kind of "second wind" when my one sister basically moved in with him with her daughter. Not everyone gets to meet their great-grandkids and he loved seeing them. I'm very happy that his final year was such a happy one (he did pass peacefully in his sleep late last year, so he's not in pain anymore). And while I'm sure he would have chosen to continue living for a few more years despite the pain once the great-grandkids came into the picture, I do think after about 3-4 years he would once more be running out of steam. And if he was still alive and wanted to die at that point I think it would've been wrong to not allow him that choice. Especially if he needed a level of care we couldn't provide, and needed to be moved into a care home. Because my grandmother (his wife) needed to be moved into a care home before she passed, and my grandfather said that that was his worst nightmare and we should smother him with a pillow before that happened. So...I also do think it's kind of cruel to deny people the ability to evaluate their own quality of life and decide it isn't worth it. Because...we already do that for our pets. We had to make the decision to put down our cat Peaches because he had medical problems that were causing him a lot of suffering and tanking his quality of life and we decided it would be too cruel to force him to live on for us. And people aren't cats. We can literally ask them for their opinion. We can say "Do you want to keep going?" and if they say "No" I don't think it's fair to say "Sorry, you have to."

Addition: I do think that there would have to be a separate consideration for people experiencing suicidal depression that is not related to old age/chronic pain, since depression can be mitigated with medical, therapy, and improvement of their living conditions. I think the saying people use to try to get you through depression is "Things Get Better." I think the time to consider a person's right to death is when there is no "Getting Better" and you cannot improve their quality of life to any significant degree, as was the case with my grandpa. If you tell people "This is how it's going to be, forever," and their reply is "How short can I make forever?" then they should have the option to decide how long forever is for them.
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Re: Right to Death

Post by oxygenbreather »

my grandmother months ago passed after battling ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis) for over a year, and from our healthcare program, we received little to no help from Hospice.

once a week, we'd have a woman come and take care of my grandmother for about 8 hours and then leave. the rest of the time it was up to us; we weren't in a financial place to hire someone to come in everyday as our healthcare only provided the once a week assistance. my family dropped everything to be with her, and i will never complain about doing so, but it really showed me how little the American healthcare system actually cares about people; if you're not paying a certain amount for care, you're left to the wolves. i know without it, lots of people would be without any access to healthcare at all, but i wanted to share my personal feelings on the topic, even if it's rather belated.
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