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TxCat
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Re: Current events.

Post by TxCat »

quycksylver wrote:Has anyone been following the Occupy Wallstreet
I have been...and they'll better convince me of their sincerity when they're not wearing clothes I only dream about buying while stating that my husband needs taxed to death.

Let me start with the fact that I know abject poverty: I grew up in a one parent home at a time when there were few job opportunities for a single mother and no training or schooling opportunities available at all. She received a very, very small check from the government because my father had died in the line of duty (he was in the army). Most of the time we had no electricity or water; we couldn't afford it. I took my baths before school in the neighbor's hose. A lot of the time we couldn't afford food and in small towns single women don't typically qualify for help from the churches. Our government check made us ineligible for any kind of food stamps or WIC or other government hand-outs. I spent a lot of time digging through restaurant trash trying to find something edible for myself and my sister. My clothes had holes in them; they were meant for someone 40-50 years older than I was (literally).

I scratched my way up to where I am now, my husband and I both. I worked fast food jobs, sometimes three at a time, while going to school. I took whatever work I could get. I've worked in factories, stringing burlap bags together by hand. I've picked crops for those meager wages. I've been a farmer and raised cattle and crops only to lose a portion of the farm and end up owing even more.

But eventually we made it. We're not what I would consider rich but we're still part of the economic class these people seem to think need to pay MORE taxes. The government already takes 1/3 of my husband's wages and four people have to live on that.

The point is, taking money away from other people and giving it to folk who didn't do anything to earn it is wrong and it won't fix the situation. The people in this protest seem to have forgotten that corporations are run by people. If you increase taxes on the corporations and those they deem rich, the corporations have to let more workers go to pay those taxes. They can hire less people and those people will be less qualified for the job because the corporations have less money with which to hire people. If you increase the taxes on the rich, they won't be rich any more. You cut off a good source of philanthropy to the surrounding communities. Look up the works of Bill Gates sometime. Look into a place called Celebration which is funded by Disney. Both of those corporations and individuals pour millions of dollars into their communities and their states. Tax them so much they can't do that any more and everyone suffers.

They also aren't taking into account the fact that even if we do tax the rich and corporations harder, that money still is not going to reach the people. It will disappear into the bureaucracy and appropriations committees, assuming our government can even decide what needs done with it. Most likely it would be applied to our national debt and that means that the very same people these protesters claim they're trying to help will NEVER see that money.

You might wish to look up the projects of the Depression and in particular research the works of the AAA. That was a program designed to help the struggling small farmers. What actually happened was that the money was given over to local government officials to distribute...and it went right back into government coffers.

Socialism and Marxism don't work. This won't work. I fail to see why my family should have to give up the hard earned money for which they worked because some people want their lives handed to them on a plate.
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quycksylver
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Re: Current events.

Post by quycksylver »

TxCat wrote: The point is, taking money away from other people and giving it to folk who didn't do anything to earn it is wrong and it won't fix the situation. The people in this protest seem to have forgotten that corporations are run by people. If you increase taxes on the corporations and those they deem rich, the corporations have to let more workers go to pay those taxes. They can hire less people and those people will be less qualified for the job because the corporations have less money with which to hire people. If you increase the taxes on the rich, they won't be rich any more. You cut off a good source of philanthropy to the surrounding communities. Look up the works of Bill Gates sometime. Look into a place called Celebration which is funded by Disney. Both of those corporations and individuals pour millions of dollars into their communities and their states. Tax them so much they can't do that any more and everyone suffers.

They also aren't taking into account the fact that even if we do tax the rich and corporations harder, that money still is not going to reach the people. It will disappear into the bureaucracy and appropriations committees, assuming our government can even decide what needs done with it. Most likely it would be applied to our national debt and that means that the very same people these protesters claim they're trying to help will NEVER see that money.

You might wish to look up the projects of the Depression and in particular research the works of the AAA. That was a program designed to help the struggling small farmers. What actually happened was that the money was given over to local government officials to distribute...and it went right back into government coffers.

Socialism and Marxism don't work. This won't work. I fail to see why my family should have to give up the hard earned money for which they worked because some people want their lives handed to them on a plate.
I don't believe anyone is asking for their lives to be handed to them on a plate--I'm certainly not; I've been working since I was old enough to do so, and I too have worked my fair share of low-paying retail, fast-food, restaurant, and clerical jobs before earning my master's and beginning to teach. As I understand it, the protests aren't just, or even primarily about taxing the rich (although that was one of the peripheral concerns raised, along with protecting Medicare and Social Security, health care reform, etc.). The main focus has always been to draw attention to the corruption within the financial sector (casino type speculation, crony capitalism, and those 2008 bank bailouts which were used for bonuses and raises instead of what they were supposed to be used for.) and to call for limitations being placed on Wall Street's political power. It isn't Socialism or Marxism, nor is it an attempt to dismantle Capitalism entirely, but to reform certain aspects of it.

The "tax the rich" scheme is really more closely tied to Obama's Jobs Bill, but since you bring it up, I'll attempt to address some of your points. First of all, the point isn't to take money away from one group and give it to another, but to ease the tax burden on the middle class and small business, which are getting killed by taxes, interest rates, mortgage rates, etc. In its latest incarnation, the tax hike would only affect families and corporations that earn over $1 million/year, and the proposed tax increase is only about 5%. Granted, that adds up to a fairly sizeable chunk of change, but the scare tactics I've heard circulated that the increase would be 50% and over or that small businesses would be taxed at the same rate are simply not accurate.

You do make a good point about the charitable contributions that many large corporations make; however, there have always been tax benefits allowed for donations to charities and community service and I doubt those will be ended any time soon. So corporations wishing to give back to the community will still be rewarded for doing so.

As for corporations not having money to hire workers if their taxes are increased--they're not hiring any now, even with the Bush tax cuts still in effect. Most of the manufacturing and quite a few of the service jobs have all been farmed out overseas and unemployment here is currently hovering between 9-10%--even higher among minorities. Jobs for teachers, police, fire & rescue workers are all being cut back. The big corporations, the so-called "job creators",aren't.

I already know about the AAA, although I haven't studied it exhaustively. According to what I've read in the past, the main criticism of the program wasn't that the allocated money didn't reach the farmers, but that the program didn't even out the economy in quite the way they'd hoped. While it did allow the farmers to charge higher prices for their crops, it failed to take into account that the prices for the goods needed for production had risen even more.
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Re: Current events.

Post by crazyflight »

I don't want to interrupt a conversation right now... But I have a subject for debate. Has anyone been following the Campbell children's being taken away from their parents? Their names were "Adolf Hitler" and "Aryan Nation" Campbell. They were taken away by Social Services because of this. Their parents were white supremacists. What are the opinions of you guys?
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Re: Current events.

Post by TxCat »

Not MS-related and does not represent the moderators or the administration of MS nor am I speaking as a moderator.

I haven't seen much coverage, Crazyflight, but in my opinion if the children are loved, fed, and otherwise well cared for then the government really doesn't have the right to take the children away from their family. I have been a foster parent, and if a bad name were considered neglect then more parents would certainly have had their children taken away! I went to school with a family whose last name was "Dick"; the three boys were named Hairy, Long John, and Shorty (the girl was named Ima).

Furthermore, on the subject of personal morals and beliefs, I do not believe that children should be taken away from their parents because someone else finds those morals and beliefs objectionable. While I find white supremacy abhorrent, it's still not my business if that is what parents choose to teach their children any more than it would be their business if I were to teach any children I had paganism or libertarianism or feminism. As long as the children are not acting out in a manner which would damage themselves or those around them (say, stabbing anyone who appears to not be Caucasian with a pencil or bullying) AND as long as, should that happen, parents discipline them to express those views only at home then I cannot abide such an abridgment of freedom or invasion of the family.

There are many, many other children out there who are being beaten, starved, or otherwise abused. This case didn't need to happen. The foster care system is overflowing with children none of the states can place or have room for; why take children from an otherwise loving family if it's a matter of disagreeable values and names?
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison

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Re: Current events.

Post by LunatheDragoness »

Uhh..Im scared... .-.
Spoiler
Right now, the US Congress is debating a law that would give them the power to censor the world's Internet -- creating a blacklist that could target YouTube, Wikileaks and even Avaaz! Now, if we stand with key members of the US Congress, we can defeat this attempt at global censorship. I've just signed an urgent petition at Avaaz.org to save the Internet.

Join me in this campaign here: http://www.avaaz.org/en/save_the_internet/?sbc
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Re: Current events.

Post by wolfeyedangel »

1) Spoilering it doesn't make it a campaign platform.
2) Next time include the names of the bills you wish to discuss.

You are free to discuss the implications of these bills here; however, campaigning for a political position is not acceptable in this forum. The campaign belongs in the popsicle stand, not here.

For those who actually wish to discuss rather than rabble rouse the bills in question are:
The Protect IP Act, Full text found here.
The Stop Online Piracy Act, Full information from the library of congress found here.

Those include summaries. Note: the full text and summaries of every bill before Congress is available through the library of congress, as are the decisions of Courts unless the records are specifically sealed. Googling with a 'site:.gov' tag will cut out a lot of the clutter if you are looking for things like the actual wording of a bill or court judgement. Don't just buy into the media and propaganda. Do your own research.

Also for the record: Please dig into copyright law, there are several sites that explain the basics in layman's terms what is and isn't legal (which by the way includes most of the songs you find on youtube that are not officially sponsored and a huge chunk of published fan fiction. Yes, posting something to the internet IS publishing it.)

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Kim Jong Il is dead! Good or Bad?

Post by ElementalNovel »

Well, we've all heard the news now.

Some of us, (like myself), are happy a communist dictator who starved his people and had nukes aimed at us is dead. Other say we shouldn't be happy about a human being dying, no matter how terrible.

So? Opinions? How did this impact you?
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Re: Current events.

Post by TxCat »

Well, it doesn't end the problem. The threat of tactical strikes still exists whether that particular world leader has died or not and will continue to do so. It's likely that they have a similar minded replacement in mind already.

I'm a bit of an isolationist. The US has so many interior problems I'm not sure we should be looking at everyone else's problems and trying to solve them. That includes the death of a world leader. As with anywhere else, there were people who loved him and people who hated him. I would much rather see a diplomatic platform of "Our condolences at the loss of your leader" than "Yay, he's dead, now's our chance to get in there and mess things up."

To me, whether the leader was 'good' by our western standards or not, the death of someone should be treated with respect. It goes a lot farther toward mending broken diplomatic relations than rejoicing or attempting to influence the government while it's in chaos.

Make sense?
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Re: Current events.

Post by Soleil »

I'm with you TXCat... I think it is fairly disrespectful to see all these status updates/tweets and even sigs on sites with people rejoicing that he died. Whether you liked him or not, he was still someone's husband, father, son. He was still a person and you shouldn't celebrate his death.

The only thing that even COULD be celebrated here is the potential end of that era. Who's to say his son isn't going to step up and do the exact same things? No one.

We definitely should not be celebrating a death though...
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Re: Current events.

Post by SaxonDarkAngel »

I agree with TxCat. His passing should be treated with respect. Do not speak ill of the dead.

Plus, as was already pointed out, his son is next in line. And I heard he is just as bad, if not worse than Kim Jong Il.


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