MagiStream

I know many people have tried to scientifically explain dragons. My question is this. Could real dragons exist, and why or why not.

Here's my five cents on the topic. I think they could. There's a fantastic fake documentary called "The Last Dragon" which goes very deep on the topic.

Their main idea for flying and fire breathe, was dragons have an extra set of lungs. These lungs would fill up with hydrogen, and allow the dragon to fly, along with hollow bones. At the centre of their territory, a dragon would have platinum ore. And platinum + hydrogen + oxygen = chemical fire.

Many scientists look to the bombardier beetle for inspiration, but I think they're wrong. While it may be possible, I think it's highly unlikely.

Please feel free to comment on my ideas, and comment your own ideas. I would love to read them. And who knows, we may get some scientists to see this as well.

Hey! Scientist in training here (Biomedical).
I think you pose an interesting question, and I decided to do some research, and share my findings. I've just finished watching the documentary before commenting, I felt that was the least I could do.

To begin with; I don't believe the classic flying, fire-breathing fantasy dragon ever existed. There are no records of the required sorts of adaptations in any related species in the fossil record or in current (descendant) species. I'll explain what I mean by taking the bombardier beetle mentioned in the documentary as an example:

beetle
The bombardier beetle launches two chemicals, that when they connect react to reach a boiling temperature. There are various kinds of beetle that have the precursors necessary for this chemical mixture in their body, but do not use them as a weapon; one of the chemicals is present in nearly all beetles as a hardening agent used in their exoskeletons, and the other is a foul-smelling substance that is a deterrent to being eaten. Bombardier beetles are special in that they eject these two substances to a weaponized effect, but the chemicals themselves are actually quite common, and even sometimes stored inside sacs like the bombardier beetle does (but not ejected and mixed).

As such, the bombardier beetle is, in my eyes, actually a very strong argument as to why dragons couldn't have existed as they are imagined, rather then a supportive argument to the idea.

platinum
I also have a problem with the platinum / hydrogen / oxygen mixture, namely that platinum is extremely rare. It has an average abundance of 5 micrograms per kilo; this comes down to 5 parts per 1000000000. When platinum is found in nature, it is usually with nickel, copper, or heavier metals - that is to say, it's poisonous, and consumption would likely lead to metal poisoning. There are some areas where rivers have washed out platinum from the rock, e.g. in Africa and Alaska, but I can't see how this would ever support an entire species, or prompt a species to evolve a dependency on such a rare metal. Especially once we see the dragons in the ice age, where there would be no flowing rivers in those frozen areas, I don't see them getting to any platinum in any way.

hydrogen
The proposed hydrogen-filled sacs inside the dragon would not matter to any great extent. The lifting capacity of hydrogen is far too low to make any significant difference to such a large, heavy animal - it would not even make them walk more softly, as the forest dragon was shown to do. Assuming the dragon, taking all the hydrogen it can muster - in the bones and various sacks - comes to having 5 cubic meters of hydrogen in its body (a very generous estimation). The lifting force of hydrogen is 1.114 kg/m3 - so it would give it a 'lift' of roughly 5 kilograms. On a body of 600 kilograms, that's slightly less than 1%. Using hydrogen for aerial lift is not a winning proposition.

large fossils
Optimistically; Megalania may have been contemporary with the first Australian settlers, 50 000 years ago. It is the largest lizard that has been found in the fossil record so far, with an estimated length up to 7 meters and a weight of up to 600 kilos. This is still nowhere near the 12+ meters of the tyrannosaurus rex, at an estimated 11 000 kilos, but it's a large lizard (possibly) contemporary with humans.

If we ignore the overlap with humanity, the largest flying creature we know of was the Quetzalcoatlus. With an estimated wingspan of 16 meters (52 feet) and recently a larger bodyweight of 200 kg (rather than the initial estimates as low as 70 kg), it proves such large flying creatures are at least in theory possible. However, large flyers evolve to become as light as possible - meaning an armoured flier is again very unlikely.

conclusion
So biologically and evolutionarily speaking, dragons combine traits of animals that ended up taking very different, almost opposed developmental paths. For these traits to come together naturally in a single animal is unlikely, very inefficient, and unheard of.

Theoretically speaking, though, it should be possible, assuming a completely arbitrary level of genetics expertise, to create dragons. It could very possibly prove to be a completely uncompetitive creature, possibly unable to survive in the wild, but theoretically if one were to give it hollow bones, arbitrarily light scales (something including spider-silk proteins, perhaps), maybe the respiratory system of birds (which is fascinating, and completely worth looking up on its own merit) and humongous wings, and heck, add your favourite set of mammalian curving horns - there is no -hard- reason why a dragon could not be created. There is no single aspect of the creature that makes it impossible (as an added bonus, it would not only be a dragon: since it has DNA from various creatures it would also be a chimera!).

Please do note that the scientific community is nowhere near doing such a thing, perhaps they never will be able to, and if the level of bioengineering is ever achieved it is very likely that no one will never bother to. Do not hold your breath on ever seeing a physical dragon in your lifetime.

ps
Dropping the scientific angle completely, I do have a suggestion as to why so many cultures on the planet have depicted dragons in their art and mythology. For those who spend time in realms other than our daily physical world, encountering dragons, whilst by no means common and often unsettling, is not unheard of. Dragons exist and have likely existed in the "higher" realms since at least the beginnings of recorded history. Everyone has access to these places, many traditions believe dreaming to be the most natural and uncontrolled way of "transcending" the body. Via magic it is possible to consciously connect to these realms and their non-physical inhabitants at will, and communicate with them. The most comprehensive system of ritual magic I know of is the Golden Dawn system. Although I do not practice that system myself, it might be interesting to research. I am sure there are myriad other systems out there that allow for the same results. There are Christian systems of magic, and (at least) one for most other religions as well as entirely non-religious systems. Chaos magic in particular uses lore and explanations that tend to be more satisfactory to the scientifically minded. I do not practice chaos magic either, and can't personally advocate for any of these systems. Learning any effective magic system will take several years, but it may well take you to the origin of the dragon mythos, and explain many other things about the world along the way.

Sir, I do try to use reason, and I thank you for your contributions. If there are other combinations to create dragons, I would like to hear them. Perhaps another gas could aid in lifting these beasts off of the ground. And perhaps the bombardier beetle's method of chemical explosion is also the closest thing to fire breathe. Needless to say, I have read and reviewed your comment, and find your findings accurate, and helpful. Thank you, and good luck in getting your biomedical degree.

Very welcome, and thank you kindly.

I do find the topic fascinating, and enjoy discussing it further. I also hope some others might drop in and contribute.
So, on to some more hardcore speculation:

Out of all the gasses, hydrogen has by far the smallest density and thus the highest lifting capacity. There would not be a more effective lifting gas I can think of - for hydrogen to be effective, I'd imagine something like a huge jellyfish-like creature with an enormous gas-bladder on top. A creature that looks a bit like a Zeppelin, in fact. The main advantage hydrogen gas has is that it is very flammable and can thus aid in the dragon's fire-breathing system.

If we're not counting on the gas aiding in lift, I think we could just as easily have the animal's bladder fill with methane, which is a gas almost all animals produce, including reptiles, and which is also very much flammable (though admittedly hydrogen burns hotter). The bladder might be pressurized, and able to forcefully contract, shooting out gas - all you'd need is ignition at some point. I have been considering fire-starting methods and realized that, in fact, we don't even need a spark. We just need to reach the combustion temperature of the gas, even for a fraction of a second. I was imagining a fire-drill, and how it uses friction to achieve the heat needed to combust tinder - perhaps the dragon has a rough bony edge on the tongue, as well as on the front of the palate of it's mouth, or maybe it's teeth or snout. Flicking the two regions together rapidly enough might cause the temperature to rise to 500* C, being enough to ignite hydrogen, or methane at 537* C. The harder the tongue pushes against the rough edge, the longer the edge, and the quicker it moves, the higher the temperature increase will be. Considering the tongues of chameleons (0 to 60 mph in 1/100th of a second) and frogs and so on, the launching of the tongue at explosive speeds is by no means a novel adaptation... And the bigger the dragon's mouth, the easier it would be to get the necessary friction up, and the larger the gas bladder can be, making increased size an effective adaptation for fire-breathing. Also, as an added bonus, the dragon might now have a dangerous bony point on the edge of the tongue as a weapon.

I don't think dragons necessarily need anything other than huge wings to achieve flight - I just don't see a scenario in which they would evolve such wings naturally. The whole 'four limbs only' thing for all terrestrial vertebrates is a rather hard limit... I could see gliding happening, as the draco genus of lizards has achieved. This wouldn't require any additional limbs, since they apparently adapted in such a way that extended their existing ribs to the point of creating a sort of pseudo-wing.

Alternatively, birds developed out of dinosaurs, so potentially the forelegs could develop into wings, although one might argue the result is more like a wyvern than a dragon.

Well I agree with you on the extra lungs but I don't think there fire is chemicals produced. I thing if they breath fire is if they were born in that had habitat like if a dragon egg was struck by lightning then it would be a ligtnint dragon I know a lot about dragons but I don't think there fire is chemical related It's kind of a spit gland in there throats that heats up water and has it evaporate in to fire really quickly. As of there bones,I agree.and a wavren have a little more of denser bones but that's about it and I don't think wavren can breath fire or anything like that but they do have different elements. But for snake dragons they do have wings but they can't really fly there more for self defense and can glide but they have no legs. That's what I think

I think they could exist, but I don't really believe in them. I haven't really seen any sound evidence thus so far so I'm rather agnostic to the idea.

druidgarden wrote:Alternatively, birds developed out of dinosaurs, so potentially the forelegs could develop into wings, although one might argue the result is more like a wyvern than a dragon.

Wyverns are close enough

That's a very interesting point about how they could potentially breathe fire. It definitely sounds a lot nicer than a flamethrower (setting their own puke on fire sounds a bit painful and also they would need a rather special diet to make a viable fuel).

About the whole elements thing, I highly doubt hitting an egg with a lightning bolt could turn it into a lightning dragon as very few things can survive 30000 kelvin temperatures. For a lightning dragon the anatomy would have to be quite different in multiple areas so it is more likely they would be distant relatives, same goes for water dragons. Water dragons would be pretty simple, because they could either have lungs or gills to survive underwater, possibly blowholes (whale dragons, anyone?) and so long as their body is able to withstand the water pressure they could exist. Unless, of course, they are more like squids.

If we're talking lightning-element oriented dragons, these dragons would likely be able to generate electric currents at will (shooting them may be a bit far-fetched but depending on their habitat and target it may work as well). A lot of living things currently have a certain amount of electricity naturally, for different biological processes If these were amplified somehow or if the dragon has an organ or something (think electric eels) they could use electricity at both low and high voltages.

Wikipedia (I know sue me) wrote:The electric eel has three pairs of abdominal organs that produce electricity: the main organ, the Hunter's organ, and the Sach's organ. These organs make up four-fifths of its body, and give the electric eel the ability to generate two types of electric organ discharges: low voltage and high voltage. These organs are made of electrocytes, lined up so a current of ions can flow through them and stacked so each one adds to a potential difference.

When the eel finds its prey, the brain sends a signal through the nervous system to the electrocytes. This opens the ion channels, allowing sodium to flow through, reversing the polarity momentarily. By causing a sudden difference in electric potential, it generates an electric current in a manner similar to a battery, in which stacked plates each produce an electric potential difference.

Touch=Zap!

On the topic of snake dragons, I doubt highly serpentine bodies, dragon wings and a lack of legs makes a good combination in a dangerous environment. Although if these were descended from "true dragons" they may still have vestigal wings, but instead move around like regular snakes. Or flippers. Flippers are cool.

Do you guys think it may be possible that the fire breathing thing is an exaggeration of a less awesome super ability like acidic saliva and blood?

I have no problem believing that dragons, of a sort, existed, or perhaps more to the point that large creatures that fit the dragon description did exist. Humans are very good at hyperbole, and if you check an old bestiary you'll see many wonderful and perhaps odd descriptions of animals we know are absolutely magnificent, just not in the way our ancestors described them.

What I think is interesting is that in a lot of bestiaries fire breathing was not something they mentioned a lot of. There were very specific, rare descriptions of fire breathing dragons but most reference their venom, dangerous tails, and sharp teeth which are all things I can get behind. Or, in the ones I've read most recently, the dragons ability to kill a full grown elephant through coiling round them like a snake.

I think it's also important to remember that descriptions from the past may be interpreted incorrectly. Fire breathing may not literally mean fire breathing, but something akin to the saliva of a komodo dragon. Not all of them, as there are obviously some very clear descriptions of fire breathing dragons, but some of them I think have definitely been interpreted a little too literally with little consideration for the poetic descriptions some tended to use to describe beasts of the world ;).

I don't believe that they do right now but with genetics and DNA coding I think that scientists could genetically modify a few animals and create them

Not sure if this has any place here, but my mother used to believe in Dragons as spiritual beings. Believing that they live on a separate plane of existence. She considered them almost deity-like and very powerful beings that one could summon via spells or other means. I'm a bit on the fence about it, but I'm leaning to believing the way she did because some of the things she said happened just makes so much sense. My mother never lied to me, so I believe her. I know that's not sufficient evidence for anything but my own beliefs, but that's what I've got.