MagiStream

missshadedlove wrote:misread then but none the less I see only 2 genders..female and male..nothing in between.

I am born intersexed. I exist.
I identify as male myself but there are others who do not choose either.

Most modern civilizations only accept the common gender-binary as either a religious or basic biological stance. The latter has been proven to be wrong though. There are many people unaware of their actual chromosomes. What determines your gender is not just xx or xy. There are many variations, most of them don't really matter and cause no in or outward changes but some are better known as they cause problems.

Women with Turner's syndrome have X0. They need Estrogen hormones or else they will not develop normally. They can get pregnant but need IVF to do so.

Triple X syndrome occurs in women who inherit three X chromosomes--their genotype is XXX or more rarely XXXX or XXXXX. This can lead to premature ovarian failure and they all suffer from learning problems. They are also very tall.

XYY syndrome males inherit an extra Y chromosome--their genotype is XYY. As adults, these "super-males" are usually tall (above 6 feet) and generally appear and act normal. However, they produce high levels of testosterone. During adolescence, they often are slender, have severe facial acne, and are poorly coordinated. They are usually fertile and lead ordinary lives as adults. Many, if not most, are unaware that they have a chromosomal abnormality.

Klinefelter males inherit one or more extra X chromosomes--their genotype is XXY or more rarely XXXY or XY/XXY. In severe cases, they have relatively high-pitched voices, asexual to feminine body contours as well as breast enlargement, and comparatively little facial and body hair. They are sterile or nearly so.

These are the only the most common I listed, there are lots of others!


There are even scientists today who say that absolutely nobody is a straight and typical xx or xy. Seeing that even certain animals can change their gender in certain conditions I say we are way too focused on gender being this or that.

I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There are people who simply like being male(like me LOL) or female but those that feel this is too restricting should be able to create and identify other genders for themselves that should, in my humble opinion, be accepted. If nature already shows this diversity why not?
In Germany a law passed this year that enables intersex children to have a third neutral gender. This way they can either keep this until death or simply change it later on if they so choose.

If we come to identity versus gender I don't believe it matters much. Precisely because biological gender isn't as set in stone as most would like to believe. I also hate binary gender thinking as lots of horrible surgeries have been performed on intersex children or children with genitalia that were deemed damaged or "uncertain". Too many of us have been operated on and tried to change into a gender they were not. The mental anguish and physical pain is one I cannot even begin to describe. Some who would have been able to have children were sterilized.

i normally dont like talking, and prefer to keep to myself on these kinds of sites. i dunno, its just how i am. im afab (assigned female at birth) nonbinary. i say nonbinary cause its easier for me, since other labels can get overly complicated. i go by female pronouns though, since i feel female most of the time but sometimes i get very strong bouts of dysphoria (discomfort related to my biological gender).

honestly its a bit silly to have a discussion like this and call anyone not recognizing the fact that theres more than the 2 binary sexs is silly. this isnt something that you "believe in" its not an "opinion", just like "not believing" in science doesnt negate the existence of it. you cant have an "opinion" on the existence of something that already has concrete proof of being real, even if you dont experience it yourself, it doesnt make it any less real.
just my two cents though. gotta say though, i love BradTheMad's post. but yeah ill float off back to the click forums where i dont talk to people rofl.

So where do you stand on intersexed individuals? Those are people who have chromosomal aberrations or abnormalities or hormonal mistakes that can cause a person to be born with ambiguous genitalia or be chromosomally male but have female sex organs, etc.

Those who are born say with both male and female parts that's one thing since its a medical problem. I am not talking about medical problems I am talking about those who choose.

Gender =/= sex. This is a quote from the NHS website, which has pages on gender: "Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be."

The idea of only having 2 genders is not universal; plenty of cultures have recognised more than 2 genders. To deny the existence of more than 2 genders would erase them! In Western cultures, I am fairly sure I remember reading something relating to trans people in history, and how trans people are no new phenomenon (so to speak).

I have my opinion..to me Gender and Sex are same thing..you don't see people ask AGL. I like guy things more than i do girl things but do I want to change my appearance. I never said that trans people never existed as I know they do..but I will admit I would have a hard time calling them a she if they were MTF. Because I my eyes they are not a female they are male.


Brad..never said you didn't exist..i see that as a medical issue

Those who are born say with both male and female parts that's one thing since its a medical problem. I am not talking about medical problems I am talking about those who choose.

trans IS a medical condition. like i said, something isnt invalid just because you dont experience it yourself. no one CHOOSES to be trans, its a way your brain is wired.

missshadedlove wrote:

Gender =/= sex. This is a quote from the NHS website, which has pages on gender: "Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be."

The idea of only having 2 genders is not universal; plenty of cultures have recognised more than 2 genders. To deny the existence of more than 2 genders would erase them! In Western cultures, I am fairly sure I remember reading something relating to trans people in history, and how trans people are no new phenomenon (so to speak).

I have my opinion..to me Gender and Sex are same thing..you don't see people ask AGL. I like guy things more than i do girl things but do I want to change my appearance. I never said that trans people never existed as I know they do..but I will admit I would have a hard time calling them a she if they were MTF. Because I my eyes they are not a female they are male.

I wrote a proper reply to this but for some reason I got logged out...argh...ANYWAY

Teenagers who probably aren't even aware of the difference between gender and sex asking "AGL" does not change the fact that , at least in Britain (the NHS, whose website I quoted, is the British medical service, btw), gender and sex are not viewed as the same medically.

It doesn't matter that you like guy things more than girl things, that's not what it's about...a guy liking feminine things wouldn't make him less of a boy, and similarly girls liking masculine things wouldn't mean they are not girls. It's not about wanting, it's about being. Like your sexuality. You don't generally get to pick and choose. And, realistically, being trans* is very hard. There are people like you who don't believe they are valid identities, they are murdered and beaten at a hugely disproportionate rate because of their gender. I can't imagine most people choosing to be trans because it's literally life-threatening to a lot of people (particularly trans women of colour; I read a study which told me they made up 53% of the murders of LGBT+ people in a certain year).

I didn't say you said they don't exist. I'm saying they've existed for a long times, and not all cultures adopt our narrow, rigid view of gender. This seems to be to be evidence for the fact gender=/= sex!

If you think it's about choosing, do you think you could just choose to be another gender? You think you could just become a guy and feel like a guy?

If I said to you, that in my eyes you are not a woman, but a man, do you think that would make your identity as a woman less valid?

missshadedlove wrote:Those who are born say with both male and female parts that's one thing since its a medical problem. I am not talking about medical problems I am talking about those who choose.

First off, I'd like to warn you that you should be careful with how you phrase things. You haven't said anything too bad yet, but remember that there will be many nonbinary/trans people reading your posts who may get offended. You are free to share your opinion, but try not to sound accusatory or anything like that.


Second, being nonbinary/trans is not a choice. Especially in the cases of MTF/FTM, why would people choose to be something that is highly likely to separate them from their families and get them hurt, if not killed? Here are some statistics, from the Williams Institute's "Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults" report (found here: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/w ... -Final.pdf):
Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%
— Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school,
at work, and when accessing health care
• Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%
• Experienced discrimination or harassment at
work: 50-59%
• Doctor or health care provider refused to treat
them: 60%
• Suffered physical or sexual violence:
— At work: 64-65%
— At school (any level): 63-78%
— Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law
enforcement
• Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement
officers: 57-61%
• Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law
enforcement officers: 60-70%
— Experienced homelessness: 69%

Just because you have not experienced something does not make other people's lives invalid.
To give you a good understanding, just imagine that everyone always refers to you as a male, all the time. It's upsetting and uncomfortable, because <i>you</i> know that you are female. You feel like you can't tell anyone, though, because they will make fun of you, or worse. This will, of course, take a toll on your mental health. That's what it's like for me, and for countless others.

slicing wrote: Gender =/= sex. This is a quote from the NHS website, which has pages on gender: "Biological sex is assigned at birth, depending on the appearance of the genitals. Gender identity is the gender that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be."

Thank you for getting this in! I wholeheartedly agree. Sex and gender are not the same thing; 'gender' is not just a polite word for 'sex'. If it makes things easier Sex = male/female. Gender = masculine/feminine/all the other variations. It really annoys me to have to fill in a form that says Gender: male/female. My sex is female, my gender is nobody's business but my own

I would like everyone to take a step back, breathe, and consider words carefully before this topic hurts someone. Remember, in the HoS opinions have to be clearly stated as such. There is a difference between "I am uncomfortable with any gender designation other than binary" or "I believe there are only two sexes" --- both of which are allowed as long as you explain your basis of opinion --- and disavowing that others' beliefs and opinions exist. Make certain any facts are backed with reliable science and provide references where needed.

-- TxCat, moderator HoS

Some additional resources:

Gender Identity

Terminology and Definitions

Understanding Gender

My fellow moderator BradtheMad stated most of what I have to say more clearly than I ever could, but I do have a few things to add.

Sex and gender identity are related but separate terms. Sex (known in most GLBTQ communities as anatomical gender) refers to the apparent sex of the child --- male or female --- according to the appearance of primary sexual organs. Gender identity, partially based on cultural assumptions, mores, and taboos, encompasses various maculine, feminine, and neutral trais and behaviors. What is considered masculine in one country or commmunity might be considered feminine or taboo elsewhere. A third term, sexual orientation, refers to one's preference in a potential mate and usually includes ideas from both the other categories.

None of them are wholely, if at all, a matter of choice. If anatomical sex is ambiguous at birth, the attending physicianis likely to randomly assign gender. This can cause shifts and confusion with identity and orientation. Sometimes, as Brad mentioned, chromosomes are duplicated, missing, or damaged. These situations impact both body and mental status. Many of these conditions with their attending anomalies have been scientifically recorded and defined. Partial, pseudo-, and full hermaphrodites exist (falls unser the general medical term of intersexed). Everything from secondary physical characteristics to mental well being can be affected.

Gender dysmprphia ( transgenders) exists. When examined in autopsy the brains of transgenders were found to reflect their gender identity rather than anatomical gender. There are minute but significant differences between male and female brains while allowed the scientists who reported this to draw that conclusion. Unfortunately, like so many other mysteries about the brain, the structures are too deep within the brain to allow for identification while living. Current research indicates that the ventral spaces (that's the butterfly shaped space you sometimes see on a brain scan) in male and female brains differ but there haven't been enough studies to document for certain that these differences span anatomical gender.

As for sexual orientation...I don't believe that is a choice either. I believe it is biologically dictated by pheromones and population numbers. There are a few mammal species --- hyena and. Rat come to mind --- which will change sexual orientation to prevent over or under population. Gender fluidity and sexual orientation have been observed in both the great apes and the chimpanzees. If it occurs in nature, why would we be any different? We're animals too.

One a personal note: most of you know about my fantastic family. I am a lesbian and I gender identify as fluid. Some days I take cultural roles and express myself in a manner typically defined as male, other times female, and often nuetral or in a combined state. My clothes are gender neutral. My girlfriend is also gender fluid but feels male most of the time. Dee, my lover and the father of our children, is a bisexual male. My husband is agender but very rarely does female things. Ygraine, the mother of our children, is heterosexual female. We have a set of twins four years old and a set of triplets less than a year old. The twin boy demonstrated early on that he prefered girl's clothing and occupations. His sister is a tomboy but so far seems most likely to be female. We use he/she and hir if the person so requests. My girlfriend actually prefers "it".

We're all okay with one another and our friends. It is, after all, just a convenient designation.

This is a topic that's always interesting to me, because I honestly didn't even have a clue that issues like this existed until a few years ago, because a lot of my online friends have varying gender and sexual orientations that opened my eyes to these kinds of things. It's astonishing to me now that, not because I was raised as such, just that it was never...there? In society, so I never asked my parents about the ideas (and parents being parents, don't really want to discuss that stuff most of the time ).

That said, genders and what-not really don't matter to me? I will call you what you want to be called. I might struggle with it at first if I know you IRL and you don't necessarily look what you identify as, but I will always try my hardest to remember and say it. And learning about these things is something I always want to do, since I have next-to-no knowledge about this stuff.

Sex =/= gender. Sex is what you are born as, and I believe most of the time you can't really change that, since genetics are genetics. Gender though is what you believe you are, and...well, I don't think you can change what you are in that regard either, but it's certainly a lot harder to work out what you are in the first place. Same with sexual orientation.

I think the only thing I've ever rebelled against when it comes to these things is I don't like to call people "it", because its usually aren't things that are alive or are important, so I prefer to call someone they/them. Personal tic of mine.

My two cents, I guess?

I feel that we take to much care not to step on any one's toes when referring to gender. I personally don't feel gender is a thing. I feel that we all just kind of exist and some of use have parts that allow us to procreate and produce more children. I recognize masculine and feminine in certain people but I don't see gender or even sex of those individuals. Maybe I'm just strange.
When I use Him and Her, it's because it's easier for me. I don't do it to be insulting.
Also I identify as female to make life easier for those around me and because It is hard to identify even remotely masculine.