Human Evolution

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MightyOak
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by MightyOak »

Surveillance:
-My biggest issue with the above viewpoint is the use of "prime apes". I believe you mean "primates", which is the family of animals of apes, monkeys, and hominids, too.
-The general hairlessness of humans is a very interesting sort of topic. I am a fan of the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis I find it explains things for me that suit my own thought processes. :t-lol: It is something that people scoff about, though. I've never thought it that outrageous.
GoblinShark:
Africa, which is generally a decently warm if not hot place. We lost our coating, and by lost I mean it became quite a bit less dense (Anyone who's been in a men's locker room knows just how hairy our species can be), as an adaptation for running.
The problem with this, though, is that the only animals on the savannah who are mostly hairless (elephants, rhinos) have very thick hides to compensate for no fur. Most of the animals in that part of the world have short fur to protect from the sun. And might I add that males vary greatly in amount and density of body hair while females have a lot less variety and naturally less hair than their male counterparts. I would also add that the temperatures, flora, and faune were different than they are today.

In general I don't think religion belongs in a scientific discussion. The bible and, before it, the torah are a collection of creation stories of a desert people. These stories were eventually written down and they were then oft translated (often not as well as might be hoped). No one looks at the story of Yoruba people of West Africa, they had a god that become drunk and decided to make clay figures that looked like him. the drunker he got the more defective the figures got. When he was done he happily cried out to the king of the gods to breathe life into them and man was created. And this is why there are people with deformities. No one would take that story seriously, but somehow the belief that a judeo-christian god created the world and humanity in six days is debatable...? I do not understand that at all.

I am a religious sort, of the pagan variety, though. As far as I can tell, the main reason why religious folk in the United States (I never hear these arguments in any other country) feel they can argue about evolution is due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific word "theory". 'It's just a theory," they say. "Why shouldn't we put forward other ideas?" In common english vernacular the word "theory" is used in the same was as the scientifically used "hypothesis". One has a hypothesis (an idea about what might be) and then one goes about trying to find evidence to support or disprove that hypothesis. If evidence is found to support the hypothesis it then becomes a theory. it is as much proof as one can find without being able to film every moment of the past billion years.

Evolution is a theory and has proven to be a more complex and fascinating fact of our existence than Darwin could have imagined. Not only a "survival of the fittest", but also a "sexual selection", also breeding between the various hominid lines, jumping our evolution forward faster than it would have on its own. And one of the latest, the knowledge that eventually genes from viruses can blend with out own genetics and be a part of us. That we are, all of us in some way, chimeras. Evolution is a glorious and powerful thing. Glory be unto nature and all of its infinite possibilities! :t-lol:
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by Surveillance »

MightyOak wrote:Surveillance:
-My biggest issue with the above viewpoint is the use of "prime apes". I believe you mean "primates", which is the family of animals of apes, monkeys, and hominids, too.
-The general hairlessness of humans is a very interesting sort of topic. I am a fan of the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis I find it explains things for me that suit my own thought processes. :t-lol: It is something that people scoff about, though. I've never thought it that outrageous.
...............
In general I don't think religion belongs in a scientific discussion. The bible and, before it, the torah are a collection of creation stories of a desert people. These stories were eventually written down and they were then oft translated (often not as well as might be hoped). No one looks at the story of Yoruba people of West Africa, they had a god that become drunk and decided to make clay figures that looked like him. the drunker he got the more defective the figures got. When he was done he happily cried out to the king of the gods to breathe life into them and man was created. And this is why there are people with deformities. No one would take that story seriously, but somehow the belief that a judeo-christian god created the world and humanity in six days is debatable...? I do not understand that at all.
Yes I meant Primates. Sorry.
And I agree with you. It is hard to believe that a god created the world and humanity in 6 days.

GoblinShark wrote:
Why is it then, if we evolved from prime apes, did we loose a majority of our body hair only to put on fur coats back on, to protect ourselves? Evolutionary it doesn't make any sense.
This change actually does make a lot of sense, biologically speaking.
You see, humans aren't really meant for places where we'd need extra fur for warmth. We're a creature that hails form the plains of Africa, which is generally a decently warm if not hot place.
If we are adapt to living in hot places, why move to a more frigid place to live where we need to have fur coats to keep us warm?
GoblinShark wrote:From what I've read, humans are basically adapted to be reeeeeaaally good at long distance running. As in, we're probably one of the best at it. Other animals definitely beat us in speed, but a person in peak physical condition can run for longer than most other species. In fact, it's thought that, before we developed ranged weapons, running at our prey until it literally collapsed from exhaustion was the way we hunted large animals.
A fur coat is great for keeping an animal warm. This is the reason why it's not a good thing for an animal that runs for incredibly long periods. Running generates a lot of bodyheat, and all that bodyheat built up over a long run would contribute to overheating. A loss of fur also allows us to make use of an effective cooling mechanism, sweating. The alternatives, panting, wallowing in water/mud, moving into the shade, etc. all require stopping, which keeps them from being viable methods when you're going to need to be running for the next hour or three because this stubborn gazelle won't drop dead already.
Really, our lack of fur only makes no sense when you take us out of our natural environment and put us into places that we've conquered through ingenuity. This happens with other animals, too. A seagull's webbed feat are pointless to the bird when it's flying around a fast food joint's parking-lot, but they're effective at letting the bird paddle through the water in their natural habitat.
You make a good point. Thanks.
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by Leprapotilas »

Hehe this thread seemed so interesting I thought I'd just butt in and share some opinions and stuff! It's so rare to find an intelligent conversation regarding evolution online. This is sorta long whoops!

Does human evolution exist?
Yes, but how it exactly does is a bit unclear. There is so much evidence about us developing from a common ancestor with the chimpanzee and bonobo ( eugh sorry if I use incorrect terms - as a Finnish person I'm not the best at "scientific English" ), but there are a lot of things that are hard to explains, such as why we are hairless and why our females have visible period. Gross, I know, but it doesn't really make any sense - why would we bleed on the outside when no other animal apart from dog does it? It only makes us vulnerable for being hunted down ( since blood = smell = predators ).

Do you believe in Darwin's theory of human evolution?
Darwin used to think that animals fight in the wild for survival - and by fight he literally meant that those that are unfit basically just die. I believe in synthetic evolution rather than the exact same one Darwin taught so long ago. Synthetic evolution theory goes with a more realistic aproach - animals and creatures with more unfit traits become more and more rare as time passes, due to their more fit relatives having the advantage and therefore breeding more ( ie. long necks on ancient giraffes - the ones with longer necks were more fit to get more offspring due to their advantage ( they could eat leaves better ! Eating leaves makes a little giraffe strong! ) which is why their traits became more common ).

Do you believe that humans were put here by God or aliens?
No, but I don't think the biological substance that eventually led to humans ( amino acids, etc. ) originated from earth. So yes, I do believe that we humans came from outer space on an asteroid..

Did some higher being (not God) have a helping hand in creating humans as we know them today?
I think it's possible. The pyramids around the world could be a sign of some outsider ( not from Earth ) teaching us about things, leading to our cultural development. It could also explain gods and how most gods have certain characteristics similar to those of gods from other cultures. It would also explain why and how we, or at least certain cultures on earth, took such huge leaps when it comes to culture.
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by Grizz »

I personally believe in evolution as Darwin saw it, however, I want to make one small point to what MightyOak said. I am also of the pagan variety, however, my parents are not. There is a Christian radio station in their state with a dee-jay/I'm not exactly sure what you would call him as he doesn't play music but fields calls and holds discussions. When I was visiting last, he was debating with a pretty well known atheist, whose name escapes me at the moment sadly, about the fact that we have the fossil record that shows that, yes, evolution has indeed happened. He didn't deny it and in fact embraced the fact that evolution happens, but explained it as part of intelligent design.

Do I personally believe that? Not really. If as the bible teaches, we were created in God's own image, well, I think you can probably finish that thought yourself based on the conversation thus far since I don't want to offend anyone and what they believe. Now if the bible taught we were to grow to be in his/His own image, maybe.

As far as mixing religion with science, I'm leery of that. I realize one can be a zealot in either direction, and I've seen and known many that are, but I've met even fewer that can find a clear balance and still stay true either to the scientific method or their beliefs. One or the other usually has to give.*

*I really hope this made sense. I'm on pain medication at the moment so if I'm unclear in my wording, please don't hesitate to ask me to explain.


MightyOak wrote:In general I don't think religion belongs in a scientific discussion. The bible and, before it, the torah are a collection of creation stories of a desert people. These stories were eventually written down and they were then oft translated (often not as well as might be hoped). No one looks at the story of Yoruba people of West Africa, they had a god that become drunk and decided to make clay figures that looked like him. the drunker he got the more defective the figures got. When he was done he happily cried out to the king of the gods to breathe life into them and man was created. And this is why there are people with deformities. No one would take that story seriously, but somehow the belief that a judeo-christian god created the world and humanity in six days is debatable...? I do not understand that at all.

I am a religious sort, of the pagan variety, though. As far as I can tell, the main reason why religious folk in the United States (I never hear these arguments in any other country) feel they can argue about evolution is due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific word "theory". 'It's just a theory," they say. "Why shouldn't we put forward other ideas?" In common english vernacular the word "theory" is used in the same was as the scientifically used "hypothesis". One has a hypothesis (an idea about what might be) and then one goes about trying to find evidence to support or disprove that hypothesis. If evidence is found to support the hypothesis it then becomes a theory. it is as much proof as one can find without being able to film every moment of the past billion years.

Evolution is a theory and has proven to be a more complex and fascinating fact of our existence than Darwin could have imagined. Not only a "survival of the fittest", but also a "sexual selection", also breeding between the various hominid lines, jumping our evolution forward faster than it would have on its own. And one of the latest, the knowledge that eventually genes from viruses can blend with out own genetics and be a part of us. That we are, all of us in some way, chimeras. Evolution is a glorious and powerful thing. Glory be unto nature and all of its infinite possibilities! :t-lol:
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by pugspie101 »

I believe in the bible, i do not agree with evolution or extra terrestrial stuff on what put us here.
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by MightyOak »

pugspie101 wrote:I believe in the bible, i do not agree with evolution or extra terrestrial stuff on what put us here.
Can you elaborate on your reasons for not agreeing with evolution? All the christians I know believe in evolution. I admit that the only christians I am at all familiar with who don't believe in evolution are the ones on tv. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by VVaves »

Does human evolution exist?
I believe it is. I believe that someway some plants or something or little cells in water just got put together and it made animals and stuff and then apes came, and then we evolved and stuff.
Do you believe in Darwin's theory of human evolution?
Don't know what that is xD
Do you believe that humans were put here by God?
No, but I do believe in God.
Do you think humans were genetically engineered by aliens and then put here on this planet?
No, but that would be cool.
Did some higher being (not God) have a helping hand in creating humans as we know them today?
I don't think so, but it's a possibility.
Did we, as a species, come from outer space by way of an asteroid (meaning we started out as microbial life)?
Possibility.
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by missshadedlove »

Does human evolution exist?
Maybe mentally as we have been able to invent really cool things..in terms of everything else..No..we have always been here as humans and nothing more.

Do you believe in Darwin's theory of human evolution?
No.
Do you believe that humans were put here by God?
Yes
Do you think humans were genetically engineered by aliens and then put here on this planet?
No..I don't believe in aliens.
Did some higher being (not God) have a helping hand in creating humans as we know them today? No..there is only God
Did we, as a species, come from outer space by way of an asteroid (meaning we started out as microbial life)?
Again no.

What is your view on human evolution?
My view is that it is all just a bunch of crap. To me life is too complexly made and too beautiful to be made by just a random incident.

As there is to much to type..http://clarifyingchristianity.com/p_tree.shtml
(that page is good..but also i was trying to link the whole entire site.)
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by SilverWolf »

Ah, this seems interesting.

I myself am a Christian, and before you jump to conclusions on what I believe in, I believe in both evolution and that we were created. To me, both evolution and creationism by themselves don't make much sense. Evolution states everything was made by mutating bacteria, or something ridiculous like that. I'm not an expert in the whole idea of evolution and where it started, so please excuse me if I'm wrong on something. Creationism, on the other hand, states we were made like how we are today.

So, this is what I believe. I believe that ancient man was created, that they did not evolve from primates. It seems strange to me that we would evolve into insanely complex beings in such a short amount of time, yet our simple primate 'cousins' did not and are still the same as they were when we first started evolving. It is possible that both us and primates were given somewhat similar bone and body structure, but that we were distinctly different from them. However, after we were created, I believe that God allowed us the ability to evolve and adapt to our surroundings, just like the other creatures are able to do.

Huh, that was more simple to explain than I thought it would be..
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Re: Human Evolution

Post by eggod »

Does human evolution exist?
Yes
Do you believe in Darwin's theory of human evolution?
Sure thing
Do you believe that humans were put here by God?
I'm agnostic, so I believe that if there is a God in the Christian sense, He only started the chain of evolution and did not create humans as we are today.
Do you think humans were genetically engineered by aliens and then put here on this planet?
Again, agnostic.
Did some higher being (not God) have a helping hand in creating humans as we know them today?
Agnostic
Did we, as a species, come from outer space by way of an asteroid (meaning we started out as microbial life)?
Agnostic
Do you believe in Darwin's theory of human evolution?
Darwin used to think that animals fight in the wild for survival - and by fight he literally meant that those that are unfit basically just die. I believe in synthetic evolution rather than the exact same one Darwin taught so long ago. Synthetic evolution theory goes with a more realistic aproach - animals and creatures with more unfit traits become more and more rare as time passes, due to their more fit relatives having the advantage and therefore breeding more ( ie. long necks on ancient giraffes - the ones with longer necks were more fit to get more offspring due to their advantage ( they could eat leaves better ! Eating leaves makes a little giraffe strong! ) which is why their traits became more common ).
That's exactly what "survival of the fittest" is, though. In Darwin's theory, individuals with unfitting traits do not just die out. It just means that those with traits that fit (that's where "fittest" comes in) their environment better are more likely to live to reproduce, thereby pruning the gene pool slowly, over many generations.
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