MagiStream

I think--to repeat an opinion I've heard elsewhere--that all the gender binary does is harm. When it's accepted that "males can do these things" and "females can do these things" and "males are like this" and "females are like this", and one must be either male or female--moreover, that such a thing depends on which set of reproductive organs one was born with--it stifles expression, it limits thought, it prevents us from being what we could and prevents those of us who do not fit either gender from living their(our? It seems to me that the mind, of itself, cannot be anything but androgynous) from living happily.

When people are tormented for accidents of birth--for not fitting the body that they were born with--then we have a problem. When people are prevented from living the life they want to live, then we have a problem. Defying the established one-or-the-other concept of gender and sex is our first step towards universal equality.

/pomposity

I always wish there were no such thing as gender. What bothers me most about it is the fact that people place judgments on each other based on gender. Yeah, sure, there's the usual "why do you want to play football with us? you're a girl" thing, but in the past few months, my friends have been assuming that i'm dating someone just because I have been hanging out with a guy. Even my guy friends have said things like this. And i'm in my 20s, so you would think people this age would be more mature about something like that. People think it's weird that i'm still best friends with my former boyfriend and think we will get back together, but then he thought that I was dating another of my friends just because this other friend is a guy I have been hanging out with a lot lately. No, I am not dating any of my friends just because I happen to be a girl and they happen to be boys.
So really, i'm not sure what makes people decide to be the gender they're not or somewhere in between, but I can definitely understand not liking the assumptions placed upon people for their gender. Society tends to favor a certain kind of man and a certain kind of woman. At this rate, girls who don't wear dresses or shave their legs will start to feel more like men.

sorakaji wrote:Society tends to favor a certain kind of man and a certain kind of woman. At this rate, girls who don't wear dresses or shave their legs will start to feel more like men.

I've thought on this for several years... I consider myself female, in sex and as I feel. I've oftentimes wondered why females were expected to be shiny and shaved from the eyebrows down, but for a male, it's masculine to be furry like a wookiee? Maybe I don't like your leg hair, boyfriend. Would you shave it like I have to? No, guys don't shave their legs...

Pffft, wut? Who decided this nonsense?

Like many things, societal expectations turn into norms. It was the norm to give boys boy toys and boy clothing. Same for girls. We're slowly growing out of this norm into something more... humane(?) as we're learning more and more about what gender really is.

Well, I'd want to argue with the 'not shaving will make girls feel like men' bit; I refused to for several years, and felt less like 'a man' and more like 'repulsive shit.' Still, either way, not positive.

My first thought is that I think, as a culture, we're starting to become less strict about gender lines; girls don't have to wear skirts, I've known some girls who were on football or wrestling teams, guys can wear pink or makeup or go into teaching as a career, etc. Granted, all of those are still going to get some teasing and mocking, different amounts depending on where you are and who the person is interacting with, but they're all possible.

However, my next thought is to wonder if that really means we're placing less emphasis on gender, or just adapting what is allowable for each gender. Sure, a girl now can wear pants and have a career... but at the same time, if a girl actually does just want to wear pretty dresses, graduate high school and get married, how many people are going to shun her for supporting stereotypes or being outdated or whatever. (I acknowledge this sort of thing happens to guys too; I just don't have as obvious an example that I can think of off the top of my head.) If a girl has to go to college and have a career in order to prove she has self respect/is a Real Woman/whatever, it's no less a 'has to' than when a girl had to get married and have kids and have dinner on the table in order to prove she was a real woman, and while I personally prefer the career version for me, I know some girls won't, and there's no more freedom in a different 'has to' as long as there's still any 'has to.' The limit might be more bearable for me, but it's no less there.


...I suspect that post might have been kind of rambling, so sorry if any of it doesn't make sense; I'll try to clarify once I'm more awake.

HobbitFeet wrote:

sorakaji wrote:Society tends to favor a certain kind of man and a certain kind of woman. At this rate, girls who don't wear dresses or shave their legs will start to feel more like men.

I've thought on this for several years... I consider myself female, in sex and as I feel. I've oftentimes wondered why females were expected to be shiny and shaved from the eyebrows down, but for a male, it's masculine to be furry like a wookiee? Maybe I don't like your leg hair, boyfriend. Would you shave it like I have to? No, guys don't shave their legs...

Pffft, wut? Who decided this nonsense?

Like many things, societal expectations turn into norms. It was the norm to give boys boy toys and boy clothing. Same for girls. We're slowly growing out of this norm into something more... humane(?) as we're learning more and more about what gender really is.

Exactly! A lot of men seem to see it as an obligation for women to keep up with ridding themselves of body hair as it keeps growing back, when, unless a man is a crossdresser (and my aunt knows some men who actually crossdress just for fun), men have no idea what it's like to have to spend several minutes of one's life plucking eyebrows and whatnot.
The last guy I dated actually didn't care whether or not I shaved my legs, which I thought was amazing. But then he did care about my upper-lip hair, which really isn't that noticeable anyway.

@BlackParadox- and there are male nurses and flight attendants. With the exception of a few countries, the world seems to be blurring the lines between what gender can do what.

sorakaji wrote:@BlackParadox- and there are male nurses and flight attendants. With the exception of a few countries, the world seems to be blurring the lines between what gender can do what.

I know, and like I said, that's my first thought, but my second is to question whether gender is becoming less emphasized, or we're just expanding what is appropriate for each gender. So, basically, the 'unisex' category of behaviors is becoming larger, but that doesn't necessarily lead that we're less strict about what is still considered masculine or feminine. Such as shaving/body hair. Or certain types of jewelry; I see plenty of guys wearing jewelry that's leather/metal/stone/an arrowhead/bone/etc, but how often do you see a guy wearing a diamond ring or necklace? Especially if you exclude things like cross necklaces, that are worn for religion, and only consider what's worn for appearance.

guys can wear pink or makeup or go into teaching as a career

Not arguing the first two, but despite the fact that it's a stereotypically 'female' profession, teaching--much like cooking and, to a lesser extent, music--is a male-dominated profession, especially in the higher grades. (Y'know, where people actually have to have a degree in what they're teaching.)

Well, for all of you that don't know a tom-boy is a girl that does everything a boy would do. So, if they were a girl that acts like a boy, wouldn't they date a female which makes them lezbo? And if they date guys like a girl, wouldn't they be gay for dating a boy while acting like a boy and wanting to be a boy?

Merged your original topic with this thread as it best fits here.

DragonKai wrote:Well, for all of you that don't know a tom-boy is a girl that does everything a boy would do.

A more refined definition: a tomboy or tomgirl is a girl who chooses to behave and dress outside the gender roles of her culture. Typically this means wearing masculine oriented clothing and colors and playing physical games which are considered to be masculine or the domain of boys. In the past, this would have been defined as any girl or woman who wore pants and overalls instead of skirts or dresses but in the Western world at least that distinction has all but disappeared.

So, if they were a girl that acts like a boy, wouldn't they date a female which makes them lezbo?

The correct term would be 'lesbian'; the term 'lesbo/lezbo' is generally considered offensive when applied to gay women. As to the question: it depends largely on the individual. Since gender and sexual preference are loosely related, that girl may still be attracted to men. Acting like a man or a boy, since it's a culturally defined norm, doesn't necessarily indicate sexual preference.

I am a lesbian and I wore --- and still prefer --- skirts and dresses. I wear denim and pants only if I have to do something which is going to get me very dirty or if I need additional protection while engaging in that activity (such as hiking or working in the garden). On the other hand, if you analyzed my behavior, you might find yourself hard pressed to figure out my gender and sexual identity. I'm strong minded, assertive, and aggressive but I'm also a caregiver. To me falls the role of seeing that things get done --- car maintenance, heavy house work, building projects --- and taking care of my family (making sure everyone eats, doing laundry, cooking meals). I'm the one who balances the checkbook and who regulates what will be spent where; he only pays the bills and most of that is done electronically. I'm large bodied, broad shouldered, and deep voiced with relatively small breasts so secondary sexual characteristics don't help either. I can defend myself, both with martial arts and with a weapon. In my family, only our federal agent shoots better. Pound for pound --- and some of those guns have an almighty kick --- I can match most men on the range. These are all typically assigned as masculine oriented tasks. I still like fingernail polish, scents, and nice clothing though...things which are typically assigned to the realm of girls or women.

It all depends on what the tomboy hopes to accomplish and her feelings about her identity. For some, this probably is a marker that she might prefer women to men or might be transgendered. For most, it's convenient. Boys' and mens' clothes, for instance, are typically more comfortable, durable, and spill resistant. They come in more colors and they're more functional. Boys' games and playthings tend to be more interesting and mentally challenging. For an athletic or mechanically inclined girl, those may be her only choices (I didn't want dolls, I took them apart to see what made them work, and I hated pink!)

And if they date guys like a girl, wouldn't they be gay for dating a boy while acting like a boy and wanting to be a boy?

Again, it depends on the individual and the man or boy's preference. Many heterosexual boys and men find the tomboy/tomgirl look attractive. A lot of men and boys enjoy being with a girl or woman whom they feel is truly their equal and able to share in the same activities they enjoy. Most tomboys do not completely embrace the masculinity; they don't want to be boys or men, they just want to be comfortable and to be able to compete equally and enjoy the same activities which are traditionally assigned to men and boys. There's nothing wrong with this; the activities themselves are gender neutral. It's society who puts the masculine and feminine designations on the activities, clothing, and colors.