Aggressiveness in Dogs

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anatomicallycorrect
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by anatomicallycorrect »

Aggressiveness is not genetic or the dogs intentional choice. It is determined by the incompetence of the owner/the abusiveness of the owner/or former traumatic situation. A dogs aggression is a response to a situation or energy (of a person/animal) that is not stable which causes the dog to lash out. If the aggression is not handled correctly it will be very difficult to control and will continue and worsen. Punishment, though, is not the answer. Consult a professional if there is concern and always question your own dog handling. Also, the breed is surely not the determining factor of aggression. FOR SURE.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Trancekitsune »

Oh, this thread...

Ok, first off, I'd like to say that I've volunteered at shelters, helped dogs get adopted, handled mistreated pooches, and helped with many problems with animals.

I might also be biased because I'm looking to be a zoologist.

I've heard some arguments from people that say dogs are BRED a certain way, it's in their GENES.

Bullcrap- hunting vermin is in some dogs, herding in others, retrieving with some- but being aggressive is hard to place- you have to look at the possible reasons of why they are doing these things.

I worked with a Sharpei named Ben- scared, frightened- easily spooked. He'd JUST gotten out of rehabilitation (To help bring him back from abuse, and help his behavior and his views- he just didn't like humans for a while and I don't blame him), and the group I was with was trying to get him adopted to the right family. Finally, we found the NICEST couple we could find, and they come near Ben and he's a little shy in his crate. Usually, while papers are being worked, we'll have someone walk the dog around, get some stress and excitement out- but neither of them wanted it, so one of the team went to do it for them- opened the crate and Ben practically FLEW through the store and under the nearest truck- hiding. I was one of the first ones on the scene and... I still wish this could have happened some other way. Ben was cowering and the owner of the truck was a farmer- had noticed the commotion and came running. To get him out from under the car safely for US and for HIM- I had to distract him by getting on the other side of the truck and getting him to focus on me while the farmer managed to lasso him- not just the neck- we didn't want him to get winded- but around one of his front legs too. We had to pull him out, and by that time, he was so frightened, he... deficated. By that time, the potential owners were shocked and wanted nothing more.

So he had to go BACK to rehabilitation ALL OVER AGAIN. Poor dog.

Also, I had a dog in my care in that same group, named Channel, who was a BEAUTIFUL blue pitbull. She was the NICEST DOG. She had been abused for most of her life- she was a breeding dog. One time, she refused to mate, and they locked her in her crate for THREE DAYS without food or water- she ate the carpeting in her crate. They dumped her off at the vet's after they learned how much surgery would cost- they wanted nothing of it. A good person who was in the waiting room paid for it instead, as well as neutering. She took care of Channel for a while, but the original owners came back, wanting their breeding dog back, and tried to sue her for damaging their goods- making it impossible for her to breed. She got left with my group.

She could have been mean. She could have bitten and been aggressive... but she wasn't.

She DIED two days after we got her adopted- refused to eat or drink... she had been perfectly healthy, but from what we know, our best guess was that she missed her owners, after all they did to her, she still missed them.

I LOVED that dog, if I could have, I would have taken her in. I wish I could have.

It's not the dog, it's the people.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by TxCat »

Trancekitsune wrote:Bullcrap- hunting vermin is in some dogs, herding in others, retrieving with some- but being aggressive is hard to place- you have to look at the possible reasons of why they are doing these things.
Agreed. I think people are not differentiating between destructive/non productive behaviors and true aggression. Aggression is a learned response, as far as I have been able to see, and can be trained out of the animal with the proper techniques and patience. Destructive and non productive behaviors happen when a particular breed is not allowed to fulfill its purpose. That is why responsible owners who have such dogs often engage them in activities such as obstacle courses, agility trials, and other competitions. If the dog's innate abilities are not used in some manner, they become bored and destructive. This goes for guarding behavior as well; if you own a guarding breed, such as a bullmastiff or an American Eskimo, then it is imperative that you teach the dog good manners and teach the dog when it's okay to guard and when to knock it off.
She could have been mean. She could have bitten and been aggressive... but she wasn't.
I have two dogs like that. Anubis was dumped out of a moving car at a very young age. He had a broken tail and broken ribs which never healed properly. It took forever to convince this guy that humans were a good thing...and now he's my new service dog. He's a little past prime for the larger working animals --- almost seven years old --- but he does the work and he loves it. In this case, it's an advantage that he avoids humans because that means he cannot be distracted from the work he was trained to do.

The other, Daisy, is a beloved pet. She's some sort of hound/pit bull mix. Someone dumped her out of a moving vehicle and into the swamp. I waded in to get her; they'd weighted the plastic bag she was in and she nearly drowned. This dog wasn't even old enough to be weaned but we managed to save her. Friendliest dog ever, not a drop of aggression in her body. You would think, after what she'd been through, that she would hate humans but this little gal adores playing with my godbabies and anyone else who will run with her.

Bottom line is, there are too many people who get a particular dog breed because it's trendy or it looks good or they dream of doing fantastic things with it and attracting attention from other owners or the media. They don't do the research, they don't provide for the animal's innate needs, and when the dog gets into trouble they call it aggression and then either punish the dog or abandon it.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Synchronized »

Even if aggressiveness isn't in the genes as a breed, it could be in the particular dog-- I never, ever say a dog is bred to be aggressive towards humans, especially the ones that own it. What sort of dog would be useful for fighting or hunting or guarding if it was? Many dogs are naturally wary of strangers and people walking into their homes-- it could be their personality, but some dogs were bred to guard and as such, this can come natural to them. Some dogs were bred for their aggressiveness to other dogs-- especially with dog fighting in recent times and the popularity of using a pits(as well as other bullies) as a part of it, breeding for dog aggressiveness would be their goal. Having a human-aggressive dog in the ring wouldn't be of any use to a dog fighter when they need to go in and pull the dogs apart by hand.

Pits and other bully breeds were bred for working, guarding, being family pets. The last few decades of horrible breeding doesn't exactly add to their good reputation, or genes for a good, calm, family pet. If you breed two extremely aggressive dogs together, the chances you get the sweetest pup ever goes way, way down. I've talked to multiple people who own bully breeds who come through my store and can't bring their dogs in-- they tell me they used to bring them to the dog parks when they were puppies and they were always good with other dogs, calm and happy to play, but once they hit a certain age(usually 1-2 years, from what I've been told) they became extremely aggressive and attack any dogs that come within their range. Again, this could be the particular dog's personality, but it's hard to believe aggressiveness just suddenly pops up as a personality trait for no reason, especially if the dog is properly socialized and in no way abused.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by PurpleMistDriver »

If your in Canada the Pitbull isnt even in the top five aggressive dog list the Golden Retriever is though.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Grizz »

I don't believe true aggression is an inherent breed trait anywhere in dogs. Human intervention along the way can cause aggressive behaviors to crop up in otherwise normal dogs as well as some medical disorders like hypothyroidism*.
Synchronized wrote:Pits and other bully breeds were bred for working, guarding, being family pets. The last few decades of horrible breeding doesn't exactly add to their good reputation, or genes for a good, calm, family pet. If you breed two extremely aggressive dogs together, the chances you get the sweetest pup ever goes way, way down. I've talked to multiple people who own bully breeds who come through my store and can't bring their dogs in-- they tell me they used to bring them to the dog parks when they were puppies and they were always good with other dogs, calm and happy to play, but once they hit a certain age(usually 1-2 years, from what I've been told) they became extremely aggressive and attack any dogs that come within their range. Again, this could be the particular dog's personality, but it's hard to believe aggressiveness just suddenly pops up as a personality trait for no reason, especially if the dog is properly socialized and in no way abused.
This doesn't just happen in bully breeds. I've read about it in other breeds as well, such as Dalmatians, but unfortunately, I don't have a source for that as it was years ago, but I did own a fear aggressive Lhasa Apso for his entire life. He was never mistreated, but he feared people outside of the normal circle of people he was surrounded with. Both of his parents were confiscated from a puppy mill by animal control and later euthanized as both had bitten animal control officers. He was neutered and socialized more than should be humanly possible but humans that weren't his were an enemy to be feared. Since I adopted him at 8 weeks, I know what sort of training he was given and that he was never abused. It is my personal opinion that since he only had his mother, who personally managed to bite 3 separate ACOs in her time there, as his primary socialization with the occasional handling by someone when she was outside in the run, that her fear of people left an impression on him, one that no amount of loving handling could completely erase. He never bit anyone though.

Since we've veered a little closer to this topic, a lot of people get true aggression confused with prey drive. Pit bulls have been brought up and really, they're the poster child for this confusion**. Pit bulls are terriers which means they are bred with a certain tenacity when going after prey. This is seen in any number of terriers (Parson/Jack Russels, Schnauzers, Westies, etc.). They also tend to have a lot of prey drive as well. The difference is size. My Labrador and I (also has a ton of prey drive and is a successful bird dog) run in our neighborhood. One of the houses has a dog that we have to be very careful running because if it's out, it will attack her. It's a miniature Schnauzer with a clueless owner. The other terrier in the neighborhood is a Pit bull with an owner that knows what she's doing and we have never had a problem with her. Obviously terriers and labs aren't the only breeds that have prey drive (my corgi has it as well but does agility and herds sheep), but for the sake of this discussion, I'll stop there.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by chubbychoco »

Pit Bulls: When I hear about people that hate pit bulls for their breed, I can't help but feel a wave of loathing with a side of 'What are you, an idiot?' Pit bulls were originally bred as nanny dogs; they would be placed in cribs with young children so that the two would grow up with each other, often codependent! My pit bull mix, a darling black and white named Oreo, is amazing with small children; she loves them. No crib-from-birth required. If someone tried to take her from me, I would do to them far more damage than any pit bull ever could.

Rottweilers: I have never met an inherently bad Rottweiler. Never. I've met some that think they're lapdogs, some that might accidentally drown you under their slobber, and some that think everyone is their puppy...but I have never met one that was aggressive without reason. The single angry, violent one I did meet was brutalized by his owner - I saw him in a shelter, and the rescuers were desperately attempting to rehabilitate him. That is NOT bad breeding, that's bad ownership, and I hope whoever turned him into that got the maximum penalty available in those circumstances.

And for those who couldn't figure it out on their own: breed-specific legislation, along with all its supporters, are forever on my list of s***.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by TNHawke »

chubbychoco wrote:Pit bulls were originally bred as nanny dogs; they would be placed in cribs with young children so that the two would grow up with each other, often codependent!
Can you back that up with a factual report? I've heard people claim this, but everything else I've read states otherwise.
As Grizzogold pointed out, they are terriers. They were originally bred for a purpose, and terriers are a type of working dog- a dog bred to eradicate vermin. Bully breeds were made for 'sport', fighting each other and other animals. So, I have trouble putting "Bred to be violent towards other animals" and "Nanny" together. I do know that dogs such as Newfoundlands ARE nanny dogs, so I'm not questioning the practice completely.
PurpleMistDriver wrote:If your in Canada the Pitbull isnt even in the top five aggressive dog list the Golden Retriever is though.
Also, I would request links to lists that show this, please.



I had a rough encounter with a pitbull the other day. I have new neighbors in the nearby apartment complex. There's a big field behind the building. My cats play out there. My raven will be leashed and play in the grass out there. We've been living here for a year and a half with no problems. This new family has two little boys, probably 4 and 6 or so. They also have a pitbull (or mix). Their dad lets the boys and the dog play in the field. The dog- not at all being aggressive, just playful, and maybe a bit of prey drive, chases my cats. The dog is bigger than either boy, there is no chance they can control her. I asked them where their parents were, the kids giggle and run away, leaving their dog out to continue searching for my cats, who wisely fled under the fence and back inside. Day two, their dog manages to catch one of my cats, pretty much sat on her and mouthed her. No blood, not even a bruise. Just a traumatized pregnant cat. That time, Dad was out there, and I sternly demanded that he keep his dog under control. He apologized and promised he would. They are in city limits, dogs are to be contained or leashed at all times.
Day three- she pounced on Sam, the raven. She could have hurt him with sheer weight. I am certain I paid WAY more for Sam than they did for their dog. No sign of any owners or the boys. I was PISSED.
I got Sam to safety and then went after the dog.
Now, this dog was in NO WAY mean or aggressive. *I* was facing her dead on, staring her in the eye, keeping my own posture stiff, moving steadily towards her, keeping my own voice gruff as I told her "GO HOME! and "GIT!" and "BAD DOG!"
Her hackles were up in a full mowhawk- that's fear, not aggression. Her tail was as far between her legs as it could go. She watched me and bounced away. She growled and barked back at me, a little. She kept looking back at me as she ran away, or back towards where she came from when she faced me. She would run a few yards and pause. She didn't know what to make of me being aggressive towards her.
I had her nearly back to her own parkinglot before her people showed up.
I felt bad doing it, but Dad needed a kick in the chops. I told him in no uncertain terms, "This is the third time your dog has attacked my pets. If I catch her off leash again, I'm taking her to the pound."
Once again, Dad muttered apologies, got control of his dog and went away. Fortunately, I have not seen her off leash again since then.
How would I catch her if I needed to? Give her a play bow and a body wiggle and a high pitched voice encouraging Jezabell (I learned her name) to come to me, and give her lots of loves and pettings and then we'd go on a fun car ride together! And she wouldn't have thought much of it. Yay, happy play time!
So, sure, she was a pit. But she was a VERY nice pit. She wanted to PLAY. Cats and ravens look like great new toys or playmates. She just had REALLY inattentive owners.
I'm glad it never came down to me having to take drastic measures to protect my own furfamily.
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