Aggressiveness in Dogs

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Magali
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Magali »

A lot of folks around my hometown don't know the difference between an truly dangerous, aggressive dog, a working guarding dog, or a dog that's just plain scared.

I used to work at a humane society. I've been charged, pinned, snapped at by all sizes and breeds of dogs.

Because of that, my favorite dog breeds are among those considered to be dangerous under the BSL crap.

I have a mutt. He has been identified to be a mix of 7 dog breeds including Dalmatian, Akita and Border Collie.

He is a dog I would consider potentially dangerous if he'd gone to someone who didn't understand and realize most of his behavior problems. And OHLAWDY did he have problems. When I got Barbosa, he was a snarling, raging mess of matted fur, bad manners and no outlet.

I think, because i understood his breeds (as any dog owner really ought to know) and his own unique personality, i was able to re-educate him into a reasonably less exasperating member of canine society.

it was a metric ton of work over a 5 year period though, including some serious discipline. When i got him, he would charge everyone who wasn't myself or my mother with srsbsns intent to kill maim or otherwise dispatch. it turned out through observations, that he hated, absolutely HATED older men, which led me to believe he had been badly abused by a man somewhere.

So i watched how he reacted to a lot of things. i found out he has a thing for sniffing and nipping at butts, which is a border collie thing. herding is a major thing for him and was something i had to work with. He also tried his best to bite a threatening (to him anyway) mail carrier in the first month I had him.

So i took him to a local dog trainer and found that he is a herding guard dog who needs to work. he HAD to have a job to do.

I think what I'm getting at is, when a dog is aggressive, whether it is a family dog, neighbor's dog, that one dumb stray that always stalks people on 6th street, can you tell why? does it freak out if you look at it? get too close? touch it in a certain way? is it dog aggressive? at what point does it become aggressive?

i've seen a golden retriever go from playful to "full attack mode" in aheart beat at the dog park. and you know what? he wasn't bred to fight. he wasn't trained to attack. no! he was simply once upon a time a boisterous little puppy who never learned not to playbite, to be gentle with other dogs. and unfortunately for that dog, his mind got so caught up in OMGPLAY that it didn't register as aggression to him. he thought his actions were normal.

Another instance that i find fascinating from a psychological standpoint was with two "bully breed" dogs.

One was buster, a poor put upon pit bull who tried really hard to be a manly boy but always got sat on by his boxer buddy. the other was a huge american bulldog/cane corso cross. Absolutely massive.

the unfortunate situation was that he was a nervous dog. extremely nervous. which wasn't helped by the fact that his owner was this skinny, tall, weak looking nerd of a man who kept his dog on a long lead held tightly. the overall impression that i and several other regulars got from this duo was "that right there is like watching two little kids huddle together as they venture down into a scary basement".

so here we have frightened man and terrified GIANT dog confronted with about 45 other dogs going about their daily business of sniffing grass and peeing on trees. After a while there's only a few dogs left in the park including my dog, buster, a big dozy black lab, the giant bully breed and a few others.

now, buster new something was off about this dog. the owner was relaxing, but the dog was getting more and more freaked out and the lab's mom and i just watched, knowing buster knew that this dog was about to get super dangerous.

so buster did the only thing he could think of to do, and that was drive this unstable dog away from the others. he casually walked up to this dog who had a good 120 pounds on him and got kinda close as if to say "hey man, what ever your problem is, you gotta take it out of our park." the poor bully had no clue what to make of this and quickly went very still. in response, so did buster, who was always keeping himself between the bully dog and his owner and the rest of the park dogs.

Most of us dog owners know that when two dogs facing each other go still, something will happen. it's a known fact. a face off WILL happen.

another dog, an excitable spaniel, came rushing up to greet the two squaring off dogs, having just entered the park and not realizing it wasn't safe. Buster sensed this would scare the crud out of the other dog and so made the first move, lunging at the bully, both to scare the spaniel away (which he did) and to drive off the bully.


At this point, i would like to mention that the bully dog is super friendly to people. he was a very sweet dog but he was very very nervous and coudln't understand dog signals very well.

so the two dogs fought, sort of. there was a lot of snarling and biting of necks but it was not a "killing fight" and neither dog was actually out for blood. it was scary, even as i rationalize it, it was scary...like lightning striking outside the window and hitting the grill scary. but through all of this, once we humans realized what was going on (and buster's awesome owner) ran forward, we could see how buster was backing off, checking to see where other dogs and people were only to dive back in, trying to get the bully to leave.

surprisingly, buster backed off the second his owner called him. and i mean RIGHT when he was called off. but not before the bully owner maced buster. the fact that the man had mace ON HIM at the park, was a big red flag to the rest of us. clearly the man was not in control of a dog who by its very nature needs and craves guidance from its humans.

so bully and owner left, only to have the man come back later, alone, trying to argue with buster's owner, as well as the lab's owner (who is a very outspoken and feisty woman).

i'm sure as you're reading this you're thinking "how the heck would she know what any of those dogs are thinking? how do you know it wasn't an actual fight?"

because instead of immediately assuming that the dogs are trying to kill each other, i watched what was going on, body language, sounds, movements.

neither dog drew blood on the other. both were pretty slobbery and mussed but neither dog was wounded. well, except for buster getting maced, which was dealt with with cool water from the park fountain.

my own dog circled the two, watching what they were doing, but never getting involved. if buster had not challenged the bully, i'm sure, given time, my own dog would have.

most people would have classified both dogs as aggressive. and i'm sure they were, but it was like watching a cop try to calm down a man much larger than himself who was frightened and reacting to his adrenaline.

so it is always good to observe and be aware of dog behaviors and know how to react in whatever situations that can arise based on what the DOGS do. every dog is different, but purebreeds are created to do certain things.

beagles sniff, poodles retrieve, yorkies and terriers (including staffordshire and bull terriers) were ratters and farm dogs. in the large bully breeds, there is still the need to work. see all those muscles on a cane corso? they can haul as much as a donkey can.

when ya watch the AKC or UKC or world dog shows, the herding and working dog groups include "dangerous" dog breeds because they were not created to fight. they were meant to WORK, to pull, to herd, to guard flocks of sheep or to guard the farmers AND pull.

on the flip side, working dogs CRAVE guidance, discipline and affection from their owners.

it's all well and good to love love love on a dog, but if they have no boundaries, no discipline, to guidance...well the golden retriever i told you about was only one story that i have personally witnessed.

its like never telling a child no and letting it get away with everything.





ok, thank you for reading my...uberlong rant...wow. and i told myself i wasn't going to write all that much! ok, i need a snack, this made me hungry... :woo:
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by dawnmist »

I've heard and read pitbulls are naturally hyper and that [their hyperness] can be thought to be aggressiveness. Now I've never had a pitbull, but as a child I was scared of them because they were always so hyper and they seemed like they would bite me because their mouths were always open. I've seen this pitbull at PetsMart, it was for adoption, it was extremely nice and calm. It was probably aged, but still very nice and calm. Pitbulls are hyper. If you don't want them to be so hyper, train them correctly when they're puppies.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Eleadora »

While I believe much of the problem comes from the training the dogs receive from humans, I also know that some of it is from the dog's personality. (I'm considering all dogs here, not just pitties and rotties.)

I used to have a Jack Russel named Jack (he was born on Halloween, so we named him Jack-O-Lantern). He was my baby, and one of the sweetest dogs in the world, who woould want nothin more than to cuddle and lick your face off in affection. However, when mixed with dogs and no humans, things never went very well. Now you have to understand that we had him trained as any normal house dog tp sit, lay down, etc. We have never trained him in any way to be aggresive to humans OR dogs.

When Jack was outside in the pen with our two Schnauzers and our Boxer. For whatever reason, he did not get along well with other dogs. Whenever he was out there an unsupervised, he was a completely different dog. We've had to take our other dogs to the vet a few times because of Jack having been aggresive. We never could figure out why he was so dog-aggressive. However, in the end we ended up giving Jack away to a new home that didn't have any other dogs and he's been doing fine, he hasn't been aggressive at all.

Our boxer has since died (he got sick) and we now have a Labrador. Basically, it's almost the exact same situation, with being human friendly and dog aggresive, however Moose isn't as bad. The only dog he goes after is our oldest Schnauzer. Just last week he bit Smokey's throat and left open puncture wounds. They healed fine, and he's okay, but we no longer let Smokey in the pen without us there.

As for pits and rotties in general, I feel that most of the aggressiveness they're known for comes from specific and deliberate training, and in some cases it comes from a fear of humans or a hatred of humans because of abuse/neglect and the like. I was raised around Rotties. Heck, when I was hardly even two I was in the backyard with one of the biggest Rotties I've ever seen (Shagger lived to be really old before he got hip displasyia, that's why I remember him). The one time he made me cry (we were playing and he kbumpedinto me, and I dind't have very good balance so I fell over) He immediately laid down besides me and licked my face until I stopped, and he looked guilty the whole time.

So while I do believe that some of the aggresiveness comes from the dog's personality, most of it comes from what we humans choose to do to them.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Nexxie »

Dalmations are the most aggressive breed of dogs, with human attacks far outreaching that of Pitbulls. This is because Dalmations are a one-person, one-attachment breed. This means if he or she becomes attached to their master, any other person (children, spouses, neighbors etc) immediatly become threats. Pitbulls and Rottweiliers onthe otherhand are actually very nice family dogs if raised correctly. Now, we can't discount if a dog was abused, neglected or mistreated (raised to be a fighter) that they will be aggressive.

But this goes for any breed of dog.

I was once denied home insurance because of my dog. She was a Husky-German Shephard mix. Apparently, both of those breeds fall under the top ten most aggressive dogs. If you knew her, you would know that her sweet face and loving attitude knew no boundaries and she would invade your personal space to love, not to bite.

But alas, society has put a bad name to all of these dogs.

Personally, I've never met a nasty Rotty or Pitbull. But I've been growled and charged at by a Poodle and bitten hard by a Chihuahua. I hate both equally.

As for your Spaniel, have you considered that the two dogs don't get along and need to be seperated? They're just like children. If they don't like each other they are going to make it apparent to you - in a violent bloody way. Maybe you just need to keep one of the dogs and see if the other wants another family. I know it's not a plesant option, but it is better than running the risk of having to potentially euthanise a perfectly respectable dog because having another pup around pushed his buttons.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Jynxii »

For the most part, it's how well a dog is raised and trained.

HOWEVER, they still have animal instincts and you can never be totally sure that any animal, domesticated or not, is "safe"

Any animal, from a cat to a pitbul, can turn on whoever, that's just nature. They are animals and that instinct can kick in at any time.

Some breeds have a tendency to be more aggressive, but that's usually what they are meant for, some breeds are meant for being a family/kid dog, others are meant to be working dogs, etc etc. You can't take the instinct out of the animal, and that means the animal shouldn't be punished for being how it is naturally.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Magali »

i agree with Cesar Milan. Dogs are dogs, not humans and should be treated accordingly as animal first, then dog, then breed and THEN name, as possible.

with my own aggro mutt, this had worked amazingly. its ME who has all the problems. my dog only has a couple and they're mostly because of his breed combination and all the mixed signals he gets.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by TxCat »

Magali wrote:i agree with Cesar Milan. Dogs are dogs, not humans and should be treated accordingly as animal first, then dog, then breed and THEN name, as possible.
You should consider reading the input of other animal trainers --- there are some on this thread --- before citing Cesar Milan as a good example. Some of what he does to the animals I would consider abuse, plain and simple. Dragging an animal into a place it does not want to go will not build trust and will not make it want to go there. It will simply reinforce whatever fears it has and possibly accelerate the aggression.

Dogs bite or snap for a variety of reasons, including fear and warning. On that account you're correct; they're not people and their actions shouldn't be anthropomorphised. On the other hand, the owner is NOT a dog and should not be trying to act like one. Simple respect for the animal's reactions and an attempt to understand why the animal is behaving that way goes a long way toward having a reliable and enjoyable companion.

Merlin is not a dog, he's a bobcat hybrid but...recently when we would reach over to pet him, he started extending his claws, hissing, and trying to bite. Eventually, through watching the animal's actions, we figured out that he could no longer see us well enough to determine whether or not something was a thread if we just reached across his back and petted him. When we gave him an opportunity to smell us coming and to make a bit of noise, such as clicking, directed at the animal to get his attention, we had no bites and no scratching.

This works really well with older dogs who are going blind or have gone blind as well.

It also illustrates the point: before you decide you have an aggressive dog or a bad dog, make the effort to find out why the dog's behavior changed.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by Magali »

TxCat wrote:
Magali wrote:i agree with Cesar Milan. Dogs are dogs, not humans and should be treated accordingly as animal first, then dog, then breed and THEN name, as possible.
You should consider reading the input of other animal trainers --- there are some on this thread --- before citing Cesar Milan as a good example. Some of what he does to the animals I would consider abuse, plain and simple. Dragging an animal into a place it does not want to go will not build trust and will not make it want to go there. It will simply reinforce whatever fears it has and possibly accelerate the aggression.

Dogs bite or snap for a variety of reasons, including fear and warning. On that account you're correct; they're not people and their actions shouldn't be anthropomorphised. On the other hand, the owner is NOT a dog and should not be trying to act like one. Simple respect for the animal's reactions and an attempt to understand why the animal is behaving that way goes a long way toward having a reliable and enjoyable companion.

Merlin is not a dog, he's a bobcat hybrid but...recently when we would reach over to pet him, he started extending his claws, hissing, and trying to bite. Eventually, through watching the animal's actions, we figured out that he could no longer see us well enough to determine whether or not something was a thread if we just reached across his back and petted him. When we gave him an opportunity to smell us coming and to make a bit of noise, such as clicking, directed at the animal to get his attention, we had no bites and no scratching.

This works really well with older dogs who are going blind or have gone blind as well.

It also illustrates the point: before you decide you have an aggressive dog or a bad dog, make the effort to find out why the dog's behavior changed.

i did not say i agreed with ALL of his philosophies. simply the statement that i wrote above. And i do not agree with everything he does. i also adhere to many things victoria stillwell teaches as well as the lady who wrote No Bad Dogs back in the day as well as the dog trainer i used when i got my dog.

However! I do believe Cesar Milan is right about a lot of things. That is my personal belief and i do believe i am entitled to believe it.
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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by TxCat »

Magali wrote:i did not say i agreed with ALL of his philosophies.
Maybe it's because I'm older than most people on this site but to me, if a trainer is willing to employ some philosophies which are harmful to the animal he cannot be trusted at all. Especially in the case of aggressive dogs, you really don't want to instigate more aggression. The man, in my eyes, is an animal abuser and he only gets away with it in the name of training. There are lots of other training methods out there which do not abuse the animal and, since a trainer is also an investment and investment means money, I tend to vote with my pocket book (that is, not give money to trainers and organizations whose methods are questionable.

I did not say that you agreed with all of his philosophies; I suggested that you might want to look at the other information offered in the thread. Not only are there recommendations for other measures which help aggressive dogs but we are lucky enough to have members of MS who do this for a living. One of them studies and works under a well known trainer with an extremely good reputation. It's always wise to take advantage of the wealth of wisdom and knowledge offered by a community. You might find something that works better than what you've been doing or the answer to a particularly stubborn aggressive behavior.

For me, aggressive methods against an aggressive dog have never worked. The dog simply learned that I was one more thing to be feared or challenged. Again, I reason that as I am not a dog I have no real hope of establishing myself as alpha dog. The dog wouldn't buy it and neither did I. Instead I worked on removing the things which caused aggressive reactions and positively reinforcing the animal's behavior when aggression was declined over more favorable distractions. There are some things that particular dog still will not put up with; male visitors have to remove their ball caps and leave them behind if they wish to interact with her and under no circumstances do we ever let small children under the age of twelve near her. This also means there are some places she just can't go, like parks and dog parks, but the idea for us was to make an environment where the dog felt safe and could behave properly. She's even learned to wait for her food; she used to attack whoever was feeding her in order to get to the food dish.
That is my personal belief and i do believe i am entitled to believe it.
Speaking as moderator now. No one said that you were not entitled to it, but in a forum like this you must understand that people will challenge your personal beliefs and will offer up their own in return. That's the nature of the discussion. Just as you are entitled to make those statements, others are allowed to challenge them, refute them, add to them, and disagree with them. If you're not here to engage in that kind of dialog and sharing, you might want to reconsider whether this is the place for you. The Pop Sicle Stand will also let you state your beliefs and you're a lot less likely to have someone challenge them.

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Re: Aggressiveness in Dogs

Post by GingerFang »

Many dogs are misjudged, or misunderstood, or abused because of the belief that they are aggressive, and therefore are not suited to living with,around, or near humans, and should be banned, and or destroyed. I believe that even if a breed/dog is bred to be aggressive, and mean, first off most of those dogs have also been bred to be loving/caring towards humans. Secondly that dog's behavior will greatly depend on how it grew up, and it's socialization, while it was young. So if a dog is not socialized good enough, or badly treated when it was young, it will most likely be a nervous wreck, which could make then be in flight-or-fight mode almost 24/7; especially if they are in a strange environment (shelter/pound).If they use fight they are deemed aggressive, and unsuited for human companionship. If they use flight, they are given a better chance of getting a human companion, but it is still slim. I also believe that any responsible owner or breeder would train,treat, and socialize their dog(s) properly. On the subject of aggressive breeds, PEOPLE ARE PREJUDICE! Just because it looks mean,or looks like or is a "bad" breed doesn't mean it IS. Many people I think though only believe these things because they are either ignorant,or under informed(about that breed). I would never call myself an expert on dogs, dog breeds, or dog behavior, but experience, and research have told me many things that I believe, or know are true.
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