MagiStream

TNHawke wrote:

chubbychoco wrote:Pit bulls were originally bred as nanny dogs; they would be placed in cribs with young children so that the two would grow up with each other, often codependent!

Can you back that up with a factual report? I've heard people claim this, but everything else I've read states otherwise.

Well, I originally saw it on Dogs 101 on Discovery Channel. You can probably YouTube the episode, or at least the section of the episode that discusses pit bulls. However, further research proves that I was indeed mistaken - they were not bred as nanny dogs, only used as them (as seen by the photographs here: http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=676 ). My apologies for the misinformation, and thank you for correcting me.

Some dogs, as breeds in general, or as genetics, have a tendency to be more reactive, but no dog is born a kill, just as no man is born prejudice. It's a learned behavior at the worst, or a behavior that is not trained out of at the very least.

Some breeds get bad reputations in media, but if you look for more information, you see that the PERCENTAGE of dog attacks/bite fore the percentage of that breed owned will give you a lot more clear picture. If there are 25 Pits in a town, and there are 3 attacks by them a year, and there are 4 Pomeranians in the same town, and 3 attacks by them...which breed was more aggressive?

In my years of rescue and rehab, I've found smaller dogs to be far more viscous, aggressive, and generally dog reactive by far, but even then, it's their owners fault. Dogs are like children, they need to be taught social manors and how to react in stressful situations. Your dogs doesn't have to be a CGC or obedience dog, but it's negligent to not provide your dog with basic obedience and above all, socialization.

chubbychoco wrote:

TNHawke wrote:

chubbychoco wrote:Pit bulls were originally bred as nanny dogs; they would be placed in cribs with young children so that the two would grow up with each other, often codependent!

Can you back that up with a factual report? I've heard people claim this, but everything else I've read states otherwise.

Well, I originally saw it on Dogs 101 on Discovery Channel. You can probably YouTube the episode, or at least the section of the episode that discusses pit bulls. However, further research proves that I was indeed mistaken - they were not bred as nanny dogs, only used as them (as seen by the photographs here: http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=676 ). My apologies for the misinformation, and thank you for correcting me.

They weren't *bred* for that, but once people saw how attentive and gentle they were with the family, they were used in the nanny dog role.

I believe in the genetics theory, to some extent. I had a Siberian Husky years ago, and he was the sweetest, friendliest dog you could want...toward humans. But we had to watch him like a hawk whenever other, non-family animals were around. He was extremely aggressive toward other dogs, but submissive to our terrier. He would mouth our cats, but never pinned them. (they tolerated it with a sigh, haha). We let him stay outside overnight because he preferred it, and he killed a skunk and a badger or something, that strayed in from the woods. Another time, he saw a stranger dog in our yard, an he leaped and tore right through the screen door to attack her. (didn't injure her thankfully, only terrified her) When one of our nieces was a toddler, he would corner her and not let her go! "This is my baby now" he'd grin..he didn't necessarily see humans as dominant. Of his siblings, one demolished the farm one day when his owners left for the day--killed every animal on the farm, including the house cats. And he had my dog's temperment, very friendly. Another sib suddenly attacked 2 dogs on the beach as their owner walked them. All dogs were on leashes. But huskys are so strong, if they lunge suddenly, there's not much chance of holding them.
The Husky is very close to the wolf, so I think their preditor instinct is very strong, and probably wouldn't change very much with training. My dog was very stubborn and strong willed, and extremely intelligent. Its a wonderful dog to have, he was the most amazing dog I've ever known, and I still miss him. But I'd only recommend the breed to someone who has lots of patience and determination.
On the other hand, my brother has a Great Pyrenees, who even as a puppy was super-calm and dignified. He's a real sweety.

Chickadee wrote:I believe in the genetics theory, to some extent.

It's not really a theory. Basic personality traits have been proven to be passed down to some extent in many animals - dogs, foxes, rats, mice, some species of parrots, racoons, skunks & ferrets are just some that I'm sure the studies have covered, I'm sure there are more though. That's why temperament lineage is so important for legit breeders - and more then just "oh my pet is so sweet" either, I mean concrete knowledge of how the animals react at different stages of life and under different conditions. If gives owners a good baseline knowledge of what they need to work on with their dogs.

Chickadee wrote:The Husky is very close to the wolf, so I think their preditor instinct is very strong, and probably wouldn't change very much with training.

Despite their appearance, Huskies aren't more 'feral' then other dogs. Some dogs do have high natural prey drives - again, it's genetic. Terriers have a higher tendency to burrow and chase, herding dogs of good herding stock will circle and 'gather' even as a puppy, etc. Bird dogs have high prey drives too, but good lineaged dogs tend to have softer mouths and a desire to locate or retrieve, not kill things. If a bird dog had problems with attacking and/or killing prey, and their siblings/parents were exhibiting the same behavior...I'd question wtf their breeder were doing producing dogs of that temperament in the first place, cause that's just negligent and bad breeding practices. Regardless of a dog's predisposition though, anything with a brain can be conditioned, so training is always an option. To think otherwise is along the same vein of saying, "Oh, my kid has too much energy, there's no way I can get him to sit still and focus." All things can learn, especially dogs.

I have to agree with Ice. I mean there was study done in Russia to see if some scientists could domesticate foxes but that wasn't really the focus of the study. the point of it was to see if personality traits like aggression or gentleness could be changed based on what environment the fox pups where in. of course it only proved that the temperaments of the foxes did not change despite the fact that they put the aggressive pups with the mother who was gentle and the gentle pups with the aggressive mother both pups turned out to have the same personalities as the parents but the one that was aggressive was still aggressive even though it's environment changed. of course I can't use this cause it's in national geographic magazine as referance cause i've been told it is not something thats credible.

Megatronus wrote:I have to agree with Ice. I mean there was study done in Russia to see if some scientists could domesticate foxes but that wasn't really the focus of the study. the point of it was to see if personality traits like aggression or gentleness could be changed based on what environment the fox pups where in. of course it only proved that the temperaments of the foxes did not change despite the fact that they put the aggressive pups with the mother who was gentle and the gentle pups with the aggressive mother both pups turned out to have the same personalities as the parents but the one that was aggressive was still aggressive even though it's environment changed. of course I can't use this cause it's in national geographic magazine as referance cause i've been told it is not something thats credible.

I have no idea what study you were looking at. The purpose of the Russian research was specifically about domestication. They were breeding solely for personality, and discovered that physical changes came along with it- and not because of inbreeding, since they started with a large population base of foxes from a fur farm.
Nat. Geo DID report on it, two years or so ago, but they were not the ones who did the study, or even originally published findings. The study has been ongoing for several decades now. I do not recall anything about them switching their 'aggressive' control group pups for the 'domestic' pups, but I haven't read all of the papers published on it, and I may easily have missed it.

well it may have been two seperate things i was looking at i tend to mix things when i read things. i just know it was something related to foxes . if i can find out where the information and weather it was indenpent from that domestication project .

edit: i remembered it was in national geographic docutmentary on domestications and it was seperate from the russia domestication project. but the people doing it wnated to see if agression could be changed if pup was raised by mother who was around people alot rather then fox that wasn't around people alot. the project was mentioned cause it was part of the documentary which was on the domestication of canines mostly. i know it was something i watched in science calss on net flix.

This has been going on and on for many years. German Shepherds, Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, etc. were all said to be "aggressive" dogs at one point in time, and still to this day. I believe it is the owner's fault. If treated correctly, and trained properly these dogs are the sweetest. Even without training.

As for dominance? All dogs thrive for it.
A friend of mine had a little terrier and a younger terrier mix. They got along until the younger (terrier mix) dog became old enough (around 5 years old) and wanted to claim everything as his own. It's a battle over territory. She even had to split them up because of how bad they fought. It doesn't matter what breed.

As for genetics, I believe that is possible too. For that would be the only way to really explain it. I think some dogs have this aggression gene while others are lacking.

If someone has already said this, I am sorry.

Edit: I read that article on the Foxes! They were saying some foxes carry a gene that is a trait of aggression, where as some of them didn't. The one's that do not carry this gene are being domesticated in Russia, at the moment. Almost like a trial I think? Maybe it isn't. However, they can be litter box trained, walked on a leash, etc. They do shed quite a bit, and I have heard they can be a bit destructive towards furniture.

Not sure I am for Fox Domestication, they are beautiful! Personally, I think they should stay in the wild, in their habitat, so they can be at their happiest!

This is one of the scariest things I think I've ever seen. An apparently unprovoked attack on a small child by a dog- who, btw, is NOT a pitbull, or ANY bully breed.

But, was it really unprovoked?
The dog's tail is up. He is exploring the edge of his territory. He obviously hears, then sees something odd. The hackles come up, he 'sneaks' around the car- sneaking to get a better view before he is seen in case it's something dangerous to him. There's no sound, we don't know what kinds of noises the boy or his bike may have been making. The dog approaches cautiously from behind, and comes up and sniffs. This is NOT overtly aggressive or even necessarily hunting behavior, this looks like "what the heck is this?" behavior to me. Then the boy moves and maybe makes a sound, and the dog reacts aggressively, biting and shaking until the cat- who is not at all acting like prey, shows up. If the dog was hunting, or blatantly aggressive, the cat would have been mauled.
Now, it is possible that the dog decided, "I can take you, and you are too close to my territory" and then decided to attack. It's hard to say with the limited view from the security cameras.

Regardless of whether that was fear aggression, or dominance aggression, I would not want to live next door to- or even own- such a dog.

Could training 'cure' its behavior problems?
Possibly, but it's not something I would ever trust fully.

Was this dog ever abused or mistreated or neglected to cause such a reaction?
I rather doubt it, but maybe it was a shelter rescue with an unknown past.
I think most likely, it was simply not properly socialized and trained early on, which I suppose one could argue is a type of neglect.

What do you all think?