Catholic religion on gayness.

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Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by aqua1 »

((I didn't know if this should be in the gay rights topic or not, sorry if it should be))

So, today I had a conversation (argument) with a guy. He was saying that being gay is an abomination, and I kept telling him that he was wrong, and that it was perfectly fine to like the same gender that you are. (not that I am gay, it's just that I don't have anything against them). I don't know how I got in the conversation with him, but that's not the point. He said that god told him from the bible that gayness is an abomination, and he's catholic. I don't have a religion, so I'm not quite sure, but I thought that the god was supposed to love everybody for who they are, no matter what, as long as they were good people. O.o. I would like to see if, in fact, this is true; that in the catholic religion homosexuality is an abomination, and would like to hear what people think about this.

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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by wolfeyedangel »

I will interject a little here (then I have to go back to being a moderator).

I'm Christian but not of the Catholic denomination so I cannot speak specifically to their interpretations of the original texts. I am also not going to give specifics on my, personal, take. If you wish a full detailed summary of my personal take, please PM.

I can give you some of what the texts say, and point you in the direction of good research so you know what the next ultra conservative is mangling. Biblically the physical act of Homosexuality is counted as a sin (by the way everything from murder down to the little white lie people tell about why they're late to class/work/yoga through just flat out greed counts as a 'sin' from God's perspective). It (along with heterosexual sexual sin as well) were listed as things to be especially wary of because they could be physically dangerous (consider: some of the sexual acts warned about, such as hiring a prostitute and hopping in bed with anything that moves regardless of gender, are ones that the 'experts' these days warn put you at higher risk for STDs, some sexual actions covered aren't on the secular list.) It is, as far as my memory and a cursory search have been able to determined, almost always paired with a something along the lines of 'Christ came for the sinners' and 'you used to do all these things yourself' or 'you are still doing these things'. No where that I have been able to find does it say that God hates homosexuals (or any other sinner for that matter, the liar the greedy, none of them.) He hates the sin. He loves people. Unfortunately not all Christians have made that connection. I wish we could say we did NOT have our fanatics, but no such luck.

If you wish help in actually researching what the bible itself says, rather than what people say it says, I'd be willing to point you in the direction of good translations and information for the New Testament stuff (and some Old). If you want Old Testament statements and help with what the Hebrew actually means and how specific it is, I recommend hunting up one of our Orthodox Jews on site (Their name for it is the Tanakh.) I'll be PMing one of them and see if he minds me giving his name as a good reference for the Jewish understanding of things. I can also help with some historical perspective, but would prefer to keep it to PM. I'm out on enough of a limb already if I have to moderate this thread eventually.

The word 'abomination' tends to get tossed out by the the ultraconservatives (though some less 'ultra' conservatives use it as well). It seems like you ran into one of those. You'll find the ones that tend to come down that hard on homosexuality tend to have similar reactions to anything else that could constitute a sin which is entirely counter to forgiveness. You'll find that many Christians struggle with resolving real-world applications of the biblical vs. the cultural, as well as who struggle for understanding of what the bible is actually trying to tell us... not just what we want it to tell us. Another attitude you may run into is a discomfort and disagreement with the lifestyle but no condemnation of the person. Some Christians are completely and utterly comfortable with it (though these tend to be fewer). Be wary of anyone who is just going 'ignore that part of the bible' no matter WHAT side of an issue is. Those tend to be more interested in their own ideas than getting at whatever truth is to be found and you find them on both sides of the argument though the more conservative side tends to be less blatant about it.

Side note for linguistic interest, especially to those who think they didn't understand homosexuality in biblical times: The word Paul uses in the Greek for homosexuality is VERY, VERY specific, and in no way ambiguous as to what act was being performed.

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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by TxCat »

It should also be noted that many of the religions which supposedly ban homosexuality also have very specific definitions of what constitutes that act. One of the books I'm reading was written by an Islamic scholar who was researching the concept of homosexuality and where, if at all, it fitted into Islamic views. What he found was astounding: the concept of homosexuality as wrong or unnatural is an imported concept which came specifically with British colonialism.

Islamic culture and to some extent law allows and encourages what they call man-boy love. Men are allowed to admire the young, slim beardless boys. They even had coffee houses which specifically employed these types in order to fulfill such needs. There are volumes of poetry, even to this day, which praise the virility and beauty of a young man in his prime. The difference, however, is in how those words are written out. One may not, for instance, be sexually explicit and an entire vocabulary of euphemisms has developed (comparing the young man to a gazelle is most common, right down to the magnificence of the 'horns'!)

Islamic culture (and to further clarify, the author is Iranian so it may differ from region to region) differentiates between the thought and the act. It is NOT permissible to engage in homosexuality but thoughts we would classify as homosexual are allowed. The author even points out that even were someone to engage in the act of homosexuality, it is still a matter for the home and what happens in the home is between those who live there. It takes FOUR male witnesses and two female witnesses to confirm a charge of homosexuality and all of those witnesses have to have seen the accused in the act.

While TE Lawrence is, of course British and an outsider, he too commented frequently on the almost casual male relationships between the Bedu men and their affections for one another. As Lawrence was himself most likely a homosexual as well as having been raised with the Victorian and Edwardian morals, I find his commentary particularly refreshing. In himself, he recognizes it as an abhorent act according to the way he was brought up, but he also admires the Arabs because no such boundary seems to exist.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by wolfeyedangel »

You're getting some of your facts skewed, Hathor. Word for word translations tend to actually LOOSE meaning. Try translating the term 'Kicked the bucket' into any other language word for word and see if you actually get the proper conclusion. Translations should be done meaning for meaning as much as possible. If you can find a bible with translator's notes all the better. As for Lilith and that end of things, I recommend you talk to one of the orthodox Jews on site before you start quoting things from their side of the fence. (I'm not sufficiently familiar with that end of their lore to say if it even qualifies as theology or if it is MYTHology.)

If you want references to some good translations and some good places to do research, I can probably point you in the right direction for the Christian texts... again if you want the Jewish texts you'd have to talk to one of the Jews on site. I received some very good recommendations. Also if you know of a bookstore near by that supports a seminary, they typically will have copies of the original language and some good dictionaries and translation guides as well as cultural references, where you can start digging into what's actually being said. Some even have the texts, in parallel with the translation and full translators notes.

Please feel free to come back and discuss this issue when you have a little more background and support for what you're currently saying, that way we're not muddling through scinarios of 'someone said that someone said that someone said', which always wind up confusing people, and rarely accomplish anything.

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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by ryer »

I'm pretty sure the modern version of the bible explicitly is against homosexuality. It's called sodomy and I also remember something about "a man shall not lay with another man .." but then it's been years since I've been to bible class so I may be wrong.

But if you actually read the bible, most of it is vague or contradictory, enough so that different people can interpret it in wildly different ways. I guess that's where most of the argument comes in. Some homosexuals are Christian so there has to be some different interpretation going on there?

I've wondered though, does Catholicism or other branches of Christianity rely primarily on the Bible as their guide? I've heard about 'scientific' Christians who take the Bible as a metaphor or moral storybook to roughly guide but not rule their lives. Is this a special sect of Christians or just personal belief?
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by BradTheMad »

Hathor wrote:There was once a section over a woman named Lilith living in the garden of Eden, and a whole book called the War of the Gods that is no longer found in the Bible.
Lilith is part of the Torah but not the Chumash or what you'd call Bible. There are three references to her in the Talmud Bivli(Babylonian Talmud) which is a whole book filled with "discussions" and interpretations by our sages.
Lilith probably came from the Mesopotamian Lilitu which were demons wreaking havoc. There is a Lilitu which is a demoness in the epic of Gilgamesh though.
There is a Rabbinic tradition that Adam had another wife for a brief period, though not even all commentators in the Talmud agree with that (and note it's all metaphorical to begin with), but there's no real connection to Lilith.
Lilith is more part of our folklore and is a personification of the "evils of women"; she's a liar, harlot and tries to steal babies. It's common to attach an amulet to a baby's bed to ward of Lilith or even keep it near when a woman is in labor. She's a personification though and not to be taken as a literal women who prowls through the streets at night.

War of teh gods sounds like a bd b-horror flick :lol:

As for Catholics against gays I think it differs per Catholic. I've seen Catholics in interviews who were completely against it and others we didn't care one bit. The literal translation against homosexuality/sodomy is "A man shall not lie with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination to the Lord". It's not so much being attracted to other men, lesbians aren't even spoken of(!), but the act of sodomy itself. I still think it's strange for any Christian denomination to focus on this as it's really clear from the text that this concerns only those of Yisreal, in other words the Jews.
I can't recall anything in the "new " testament(sorry Christians not being offensive to you but I dislike that term) about homosexuality. Never heard Jesus or his apostles say one word about it.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by TxCat »

ryer wrote:I'm pretty sure the modern version of the bible explicitly is against homosexuality. It's called sodomy and I also remember something about "a man shall not lay with another man .." but then it's been years since I've been to bible class so I may be wrong.
Homosexuality and sodomy are NOT the same thing. Homosexuality is a same gender preference regarding all levels of relationship whether it's sexual, emotional, or platonic. Sodomy is a specific sexual act in which penetration takes place via the anus. That in and of itself would not also include homosexuality. Some of the passages to the Disciples seem to advocate same gender relations. One of those passages baldly declares that it's better and more holy for a man to devote himself to his disciples than to take a wife. Mark, I believe, in particular had an almost vehement aversion to female relationships and marriage.
Some homosexuals are Christian so there has to be some different interpretation going on there?
I am not Christian, but at its simplest and purest level I believe that a God so omnipotent and all-knowing who created humankind in all its forms (including sexual variations) looks at the hearts of his followers, not their gender or their sexuality. I've known many devout Christians who are homosexuals, men and women both. They simply follow the principles Jesus laid out. It is very important to remember that the Bible is simply a collection of third or fourth hand stories written down by mortal men. Often which pieces would be included or not was a political or popular decision, not a religious one. Therefore personal bias comes into play. Since we don't have a 'complete' Bible in its original form (for instance, some refuse to include the Gospel of Thomas or the Dead Sea Scrolls and I'm certain there are probably other books undiscovered or missing) we can't really know what was intended.
I've wondered though, does Catholicism or other branches of Christianity rely primarily on the Bible as their guide?
Catholics, like other religions, run the gamut from strict and literal to modernized and liberal. According to my husband, who is a moderate Catholic (he does not, for instance, eat fish on the days he is supposed to and the church he grew up in does not perform the masses in Latin), the Catholics take their primary guidance from only four or so books of the Bible. The version of it used is the Vulgate, not the King James version, and it has a total of seven more books than the KJV. This link explains the differences better than I could. I can ask the husband when he gets home which of the books the Catholics primarily rely upon for their teachings, I cannot remember.

I do know that Catholicism is one of the sects which genuinely embraces differentiating between the sinner and the sin. Most of the Catholic families I know are still in contact with their homosexual members and still welcome and love them, even as they pray that what they perceive as a breakage with the faith will be removed or healed. They are courteous and treat them as they always have; the prayers remain private, the desire to change that spoken only among friends.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by YvaineEvenstar »

I was raised as catholic and homosexualism is wrong indeed, but I don't care I like being catholic
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Re: Catholic religion on homosexuality

Post by crazyflight »

YvaineEvenstar wrote:I was raised as catholic and homosexualism is wrong indeed, but I don't care I like being catholic
Could you elaborate on this? What shaped your view? How is homosexuality wrong in your eyes?
ryer wrote:I'm pretty sure the modern version of the bible explicitly is against homosexuality. It's called sodomy and I also remember something about "a man shall not lay with another man .." but then it's been years since I've been to bible class so I may be wrong.
Not all gay people are having sex. Some just want to love each other and get married and start a family together because they really aren't much different from your average American family. It's just that both of them have the same sex organ, and people tend to have problems with that. At least, that's how I interpret it.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by Glow »

Hello! I'm Catholic, was raised by a Catholic family, and attended Catholic school. So I think I can elaborate on this.

For the record, I do not agree with everything my Church teaches. (I'll probably get bashed for saying that, but I don't care. ) I remain Catholic because I admire the principles it-- and the rest of Christianity-- were founded upon: good will towards others, charity, selflessness, servitude, non-violence, etc. Jesus taught wonderful things, created a wonderful Church, and I believe that humans have messed it up over the centuries.

Going on, there are many different justifications Catholics teach for being against homosexual acts. I bolded "acts" because the distinction is important-- Catholicism does NOT teach that having romantic feelings for someone of the same gender is bad or sinful(though many interpret it that way). What Catholicism does condemn is sexual intercourse between people of the same gender. Because many couples include sex in their relationships, Catholics tend to be against homosexual coupling and especially same-sex marriage.

Why do Catholics condemn sex between two people of the same gender? Several reasons.

1. The Bible has many passages that tell of people who were punished by God for committing acts of sodomy. People do not want to anger God, so they avoid and try to eradicate anything they think would be against His laws.
2. Humans were created so that men and women were two pieces of one whole. One completes the other. A spiritual marriage (the Sacrament of Matrimony) is a promise and a symbol of that bonding, as is the consummation of that relationship-- aka, sex. This is impossible for people of the same gender, so a "true" marriage is impossible. It's not that Catholics bar marriage to homosexual couples out of hate; it is that homosexual couples do not meet the requirements for a spiritual marriage. I know many Catholics who are fine with homosexual couples having legal marriages. That doesn't matter at all. However, there are many others who equate legal marriage to spiritual marriage, and therefore we have problems.
3. Sexual intercourse, as defined in the Bible, is not just an act of love or lust. Its main purpose is procreation. It is supposed to have a child as its result. I know that's not how people see it, both today and in thousands of years past, but that is the moral taught to Catholics. Speaking simply, sex between a man and women can result in a child. Sex between those of the same gender cannot. One of the goals of marriage to have a child. Thus, since two people of the same gender cannot have a child (naturally), they cannot get married. If you have sex and you are not married, then it is considered to be adultery. Adultery is forbidden. Thus, if homosexual acts are acts of adultery, then homosexual acts are forbidden.
4. Other reasons I have forgotten. :P

I hope that sheds some light on Catholic beliefs. There are many fine details that go into the above reasons, but I gave the simple version. If another person has more information and wants to elaborate or correct me, feel free to do so. :t-wave:
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