Catholic religion on gayness.

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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by Glow »

BradTheMad wrote:
TheVioletDragon wrote:
Question- why do you put a dash in G-d?
I'm Jewish and to us it is "offensive" to write one of His full names if there is a change of deleting it.

IMO the Scriptures are open to interpretation as that is what my religion revolves around.

Your last post however explains perfectly why you believe it to be this way. It's just that simply stating, "And of COURSE G-d loves homosexuals, he just hates what they are doing" can be very offensive to some people on here who might be homosexual. It might make them feel unwanted and MS is open to everyone. The word hate is IMO too strong a word to use, a human emotion that is ugly and not suited to G-d.
Explaining why you think or feel something is a certain way makes you seem like a much nicer person than putting it forth as absolute fact. :t-^_^: [mod-hat off]
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by Brynmala »

Way to go Brad - I quite agree!

Now I’ve been reading this thread for a while trying to get up the enthusiasm (and nerve) to post. However, since I was a) brought up a Catholic and b) am gay, I probably ought to say something.

When I was a kid – Catholic school, taught by nuns, Mass every Sunday – homosexuality, in fact any sort of sexuality and sex were complete non-topics. They just weren’t talked about, didn’t exist. There was no sex education at school, we had to work it out for ourselves. Message – sex is bad, sex is wrong, sex shouldn’t happen unless you are married and only then in order to procreate. Sex as recreation??? Lordy, NO! Contraception??? *faints*. That’s the background I grew up in.

I should make it plain that I no longer consider myself to be part of the Catholic Church, apart from a complete lack of enthusiasm for being religious I have some fairly serious objections to some of its teachings – primarily regarding the treatment of women and homosexuals. I left the Church long before it was brought home to me that I am gay.

I can’t say I’ve studied the Bible since I left school (where it was a compulsory subject, obviously!), but I do not agree that you can take it, or its intended meaning, at face value, UNLESS you are reading a direct copy of the original works, in the original language. Anything that is a translation is subject to the whims and prejudices of the translator(s). Translation is not an exact science, colloquial phrases do not translate directly, they are interpreted (You must have heard how Cinderella's fur slipper only became glass through a mistake in translation...). Translators may have their own axe to grind. I have read, though I’m afraid I can’t quote sources, that the original works that made up the Bible did not in fact have anything against homosexuality – that came with later teaching, prejudice and errors in translation.

To my mind much of what Catholics/Christians teach, and have taught, is in opposition to something that another religion or culture did that they didn’t like. The ancient Greeks were polytheistic, they also had no problem at all with homosexuality. For the new Christians, just getting their religion off the ground, the former is very bad– so let’s bash the Greeks, and denigrate their whole lifestyle, by making one of their common practices completely abhorrent. (We still see it today: it’s considered bad luck to wear green at a Christian wedding. Why? Because green was one of the colours associated with the pagan Goddess.)

I had a friend who, before I knew him, was in a seminary studying to be a Catholic priest. He was also gay. He was horrified by the attitudes of the other trainees towards gays, he said that he couldn’t reconcile the ‘love everyone’ teaching with the spiteful attitudes, snide remarks and giggling, though apparently the others could, and the teachers didn’t do anything to correct them, in fact they joined in. Such will be the next generation of priests, with prejudices firmly in place. My friend didn’t let on that he was gay, he also left the seminary and career that he deeply believed in.

So having rambled on, I’ll answer the original question. Yes the Catholic Church does consider homosexuality to be an abomination, though *I personally* believe its premise for doing so is flawed. Mostly though sex of any sort is such a taboo subject that most Catholics have a really hard time talking about it – so perhaps take with a pinch of salt any devout Catholic (who was brought up as one) who is prepared to open up about it :)

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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by SleepySpaceDad »

Crazyflight wrote:
TheVioletDragon wrote: And I don't believe that the Bible is open to interpretation. What the Bible says goes, and I believe it like some other people would believe a scientific text, to put it into perspective.

:t-bucktooth:
So... Have you ever eaten pork? Or worn wool-linen mixtures? Those are other prohibitions featured in the Book of Leviticus (and I think Deuteronomy as well). The way people focus on Leviticus 18:22 and not the rest of it is absolutely absurd, because there's so much more that people don't follow, yet one statement about a minority makes people go crazy. If that makes sense. I hope I'm not being too aggressive, and please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
Sorry, I felt compelled to respond to the part about Leviticus. The eating of pork isn't a sin, nor is eating seafood. It was protecting the Jews. In that time period, you couldn't cook pork enough to remove the bacteria, and there were reports of outbreaks of disease from seafood. He was protecting his people. I think the same way with the sexual restrictions, though I still bestiality as unnatural. Sex back then wasn't protected at all. There were no condoms or birth control. And without condoms, STDs through anal sex are abundant. Feel free to correct me on any of this though. Debates are always fun.

I also believe that God created everyone the way they were meant to be created. There were no faults in the original creation. What bugs me is that people say, "Jesus loves everyone," while they tell homosexuals that they are going to hell, even if they do believe. And even if homosexuality was a sin, Jesus came to make us righteous to God's eyes, making us sinless, so if it was sin, it wouldn't matter in the end anyways.

I am, by the way, Anglican, and we do have a few openly gay bishops in our global church, so we aren't expressly against them as a church body.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by BradTheMad »

AmazingGrace wrote: Sorry, I felt compelled to respond to the part about Leviticus. The eating of pork isn't a sin, nor is eating seafood. It was protecting the Jews. In that time period, you couldn't cook pork enough to remove the bacteria, and there were reports of outbreaks of disease from seafood. He was protecting his people.
According to your religion yes but to me, for Jews it is definitely a sin. Gentiles are exempt from eating kosher though. We do not believe it was purely for health reasons. Sort of you are what you eat :lol:

I like the end of your post very much, I also believe it strange that you preach "love everyone" whilst condemning a whole group of people simply for being born the way they are. Science has proven over and over that it isn't a choice.

That said I do believe that the Catholic faith is slowly coming around concerning homosexuality; they'd never embrace it but they are much more open to at least talk about it openly.
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Re: Catholic religion on homosexuality.

Post by crazyflight »

AmazingGrace wrote:
Crazyflight wrote:
TheVioletDragon wrote: And I don't believe that the Bible is open to interpretation. What the Bible says goes, and I believe it like some other people would believe a scientific text, to put it into perspective.

:t-bucktooth:
So... Have you ever eaten pork? Or worn wool-linen mixtures? Those are other prohibitions featured in the Book of Leviticus (and I think Deuteronomy as well). The way people focus on Leviticus 18:22 and not the rest of it is absolutely absurd, because there's so much more that people don't follow, yet one statement about a minority makes people go crazy. If that makes sense. I hope I'm not being too aggressive, and please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
Sorry, I felt compelled to respond to the part about Leviticus. The eating of pork isn't a sin, nor is eating seafood. It was protecting the Jews. In that time period, you couldn't cook pork enough to remove the bacteria, and there were reports of outbreaks of disease from seafood. He was protecting his people. I think the same way with the sexual restrictions, though I still bestiality as unnatural. Sex back then wasn't protected at all. There were no condoms or birth control. And without condoms, STDs through anal sex are abundant. Feel free to correct me on any of this though. Debates are always fun.

I also believe that God created everyone the way they were meant to be created. There were no faults in the original creation. What bugs me is that people say, "Jesus loves everyone," while they tell homosexuals that they are going to hell, even if they do believe. And even if homosexuality was a sin, Jesus came to make us righteous to God's eyes, making us sinless, so if it was sin, it wouldn't matter in the end anyways.

I am, by the way, Anglican, and we do have a few openly gay bishops in our global church, so we aren't expressly against them as a church body.
I'm sorry - I'm not religious, but I had looked it up, and it seemed to forbid it. I guess there's a difference between simply telling you not to do it and expressing that it's forbidden. I wasn't exactly sure of that, but thank you for clarifying.

I completely agree with your second paragraph, and it is the main thing about religion that turns me off.

And also, can we change "gayness" in the OP to "homosexuality"? Saying gayness sounds a little harsh and also, this is a HoS thread, so I think we should be using the proper terms. If you can't/don't want to, that's fine, but I've been changing it in all of my posts because it makes me feel more comfortable.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by HobbitFeet »

AmazingGrace wrote:Sex back then wasn't protected at all. There were no condoms or birth control. And without condoms, STDs through anal sex are abundant. Feel free to correct me on any of this though. Debates are always fun.
Not true! Hopefully this won't stray far from topic, but I can indeed offer evidence to the contrary. Condoms and contraceptives, though a bit different than what we're used to in modern times, have been in use as far back as 15,000 BC. Think Ancient Greece. I don't want to put any inflammatory links on here, but I'm sure you can Google the history of the condom if you'd be so inclined. You might also be surprised to know that one version of birth control in ancient times was anal sex, homosexual or not (and there were obviously some societies that really didn't care either way who was bedding who).

The rise of Christianity, of course, meant people used less contraception as it was considered a sin. That does not mean it stopped being used.

Also, to dispel any rumors or negative ideas regarding what sort of sex passes STDs/SDIs the most, I found the center of disease control website. Peruse it whenever. Although, it won't show information as far back as you may be looking for, I can attest to the fact that any sex, any sex of any kind has the potential to pass on STDs when not handled with protection or if the participants are not careful/skilled/knowledgeable in any way about what they're doing.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by Knuckerbearer »

I'm not Catholic, but Protestant, but I do know what the Bible says about homosexuality. So I can at least tell you the likely position of a Catholic who carefully reads his Bible and follows it closely. Some verses do describe it as an abomination: Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (Some translations, such as the NIV, use the term 'detestable' instead) It's one of the sins for which God gives the death penalty in the old Israelite laws (Leviticus 20:13). It's likewise condemned along with other sins in the New Testament: "Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, emphasis mine) The original Greek term translated to "men who practice homosexuality" in this verse is actually two terms combined; one is malakos, which refers to "male prostitutes", or male call boys used by men; basically males who act as the passive partners in homosexual acts. The other is arsenokoites [1], which is a compound word that's basically a contraction of the Greek Septuagint translation of Leviticus 18:22 [2]. Thus, the verse re-iteratess the Old Testament condemnation (though not the penalty) of both the passive and the active acts of engaging in homosexuality.
That doesn't necessarily mean that God hates those who engage in homosexual acts or that they are hopelessly doomed to hell. Continuing reading to 1 Corinthians 6:11, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (emphasis mine.) So people who engage in homosexual acts will be forgiven if they turn from living their own way to God's way and accept Jesus' gift of forgiveness, just like everyone else.
Aqua1 says she thought God loved anyone who was good enough. The thing is, no one is good enough, according to the Bible: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) God loves us not because of any of us are good enough to be loved, but gives love to those who don't deserve it. People are "good enough" to be loved and go to heaven because Jesus lived the necessarily sinless life for us, and took the punishment for our sins in our place: "And we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned - every one - to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)
Hope that clears things up a bit.

1. (http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... oites.html)
2. http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/h ... hians6.pdf, starting on pg 482,
or see
http://christianstudies.wordpress.com/t ... thians-69/)
http://www.blogos.org/compellingtruth/h ... -bible.php
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by crazyflight »

@Knuckerbearer
Just a question. If a homosexual person also happened to be an atheist, so they weren't "turning from living their own way to God's way," would you say that they are not going to heaven? They don't believe in heaven anyways, nor do they believe in God. Would they be sinning in your eyes?
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by Morgaln »

HobbitFeet wrote:
AmazingGrace wrote:Sex back then wasn't protected at all. There were no condoms or birth control. And without condoms, STDs through anal sex are abundant. Feel free to correct me on any of this though. Debates are always fun.
Not true! Hopefully this won't stray far from topic, but I can indeed offer evidence to the contrary. Condoms and contraceptives, though a bit different than what we're used to in modern times, have been in use as far back as 15,000 BC. Think Ancient Greece. I don't want to put any inflammatory links on here, but I'm sure you can Google the history of the condom if you'd be so inclined. You might also be surprised to know that one version of birth control in ancient times was anal sex, homosexual or not (and there were obviously some societies that really didn't care either way who was bedding who).

The rise of Christianity, of course, meant people used less contraception as it was considered a sin. That does not mean it stopped being used.

Also, to dispel any rumors or negative ideas regarding what sort of sex passes STDs/SDIs the most, I found the center of disease control website. Peruse it whenever. Although, it won't show information as far back as you may be looking for, I can attest to the fact that any sex, any sex of any kind has the potential to pass on STDs when not handled with protection or if the participants are not careful/skilled/knowledgeable in any way about what they're doing.
While it is somewhat completely off-topic, I'd like to point out that if you're thinking Ancient Greece, you're roughly somewhere between 800 BC and 150 BC, which is a long shot from 15,000 BC. 15,000 BC is not historic, but prehistoric (think stone age, not Ancient Greece); nothing that we would call civilization had emerged at that time. Not even Ancient China goes back that far.
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Re: Catholic religion on gayness.

Post by HobbitFeet »

Morgaln wrote:While it is somewhat completely off-topic, I'd like to point out that if you're thinking Ancient Greece, you're roughly somewhere between 800 BC and 150 BC, which is a long shot from 15,000 BC. 15,000 BC is not historic, but prehistoric (think stone age, not Ancient Greece); nothing that we would call civilization had emerged at that time. Not even Ancient China goes back that far.
You're right! I meant the ancient civilization of Greece, and a period as far back as 15,000 years ago had evidence. Cave doodles. I minced words, sorry >.<
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Crazy, in Christian mythos, atheists don't make it into heaven simply based on the principle that we don't accept Jesus as our savior or god into our lives. Homosexual acts isn't really at the top of the list of offenses when that figures in. Everything else is like... extra sin. At least that's how I've been instructed.
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